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The Christian Commons

The time has come.

The time has come to move beyond just talk and working within the status quo political and economic system.

Tom1

Tom Usher

Most of the church was co-opted by the Roman Empire under Constantine I, who was emperor AD 306 to 337. From that point on, the church veered way off course.

While the disciples were in the process of being enlightened by Jesus who was sharing his revelation with them, they would squabble over who was the heir apparent. At one point Jesus said the following to them:

Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister. Matthew 20:25-26

Once the church was co-opted by the greedy and violent Roman Empire, issues of succession, hierarchy, and worldly affairs subsumed the light in Jesus's words. The church became a throwback rather than a light to the world.

The church of Rome seized power and control over the Empire and set up their bishop as the new caesar. The popes exercised, and still exercise, dominion and authority and not because they are serving the last, the lowest, those with the least. The popes have claimed the divine right of apostolic succession flowing from Peter. How ironic since, among other ironies concerning Peter, it was to Peter whom Jesus addressed the following:

So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs. He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep. He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep. John 21:15-17

Yet, this has never happened. The church of Rome has never fed the flock of Jesus.

One may think this is referring only to spiritual food; however, James captured the matter as follows:

And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? James 2:16

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26

Also, Jesus said the following:

Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. Matthew 6:31-33

And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God. Luke 4:4

You will notice that Jesus said, "Your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things." We need things for the life of our body. Jesus also said, "Man shall not live by bread alone." Man does live by bread but not by bread alone. We need food.

And Jesus went forth, and saw a great multitude, and was moved with compassion toward them, and he healed their sick. And when it was evening, his disciples came to him, saying, This is a desert place, and the time is now past; send the multitude away, that they may go into the villages, and buy themselves victuals. But Jesus said unto them, They need not depart; give ye them to eat. Matthew 14:14-16

He fed them. He fed their souls and their bodies with what they needed. He did that through the power of God, the Holy Spirit of love, peace, and truth.

Jesus came to turn things upside down while the old priestly class sought to co-opt his church and has done that in large measure.

Therefore, our plan, The Plan, (The Christian Commons Project) in a nutshell, is to feed the lambs and sheep out from under the competitive system, the system based on greed (evil) that is capitalism.

That system and the governments that support it, were, and remain, coercive. The church was never meant to be in such governments. Such governments are where Satan has dominion by definition. The church was always to transcend such worldly coercive institutions.

Now, there are lots of charitable institutions that give handouts. What they handout they mostly obtain from the competitive system (capitalist corporatism), what it is willing, often for appearance sake and bragging rights, to part with. When it feels like turning off the giving, the poor suffer needlessly. Sin is magnified. What we propose is something completely different from what any church we know of has ever attempted.

We intend to develop Real Christian communal farms where the member-workers will share everything as each has real need and the surplus will go to spreading the Church, feeding the needy, all in accordance with the scripture. We will make it our prime directive to grow other such farms. The point will be to displace evil in the world with the giving-and-sharing-all spirit. There will be real democracy in the workplace (a place to be in full-time worship) and which democracy for Real Christians, in truth, is consensus around the Gospel message. We will worship by working the will of God in every job and in everything we do.

Of course, such communities, such communes, will do a great deal more then simply raise food. Everything the people need will eventually be produced (through God) by the network of communes. They will be ecological and as self-sufficient as possible.

As we point out in the work There Is No Such Thing as a Conservative-Republican Christian: Jesus is a small-c communist, there are other churches and denominations that have come close to this enough to prove it works. The difference will be in that we intend to grow it. We will proselytize, whereas others traditionally have not but have rather kept to themselves out of fear of persecution.

First things first

We don't have an office, phones, or funding for a staff or place for a volunteer/member staff. We want to make this effort our fulltime, life's work. To do that, we'll have to have assistance from those who want Jesus's real plan to be brought forth, his plan for giving and sharing in the love he showed, the love he meant when he spoke of the New Commandment.

The Real Liberal Christian Church movement must at first raise enough to support core personnel to work at continued growth fulltime.

No one ought to expect or want to be rich in the worldly sense in the Real Liberal Christian Church. That's not what we are about. A worker deserves his or her wages as Jesus said, but workers for God don't need much. Jesus didn't shun basic creature comforts, but he wasn't about getting them. He made clear the priorities. He practiced what he preached. He sought righteousness, and the other things were added to him from God whom Jesus didn't doubt. We will endeavor not to stray from that. This ministry is about serving, not about making multimillionaire preachers.

We will want to continue and to boost our Internet campaign. That will require funding.

Along with for those fundamentals, we are saving toward farmlands and equipment and materials, etc.

Following the New Commandment means feeding the lambs and sheep in spirit and body as we've said above. The best way to start right now on a sustainable basis is to form and run Real Liberal Christian Church farming communes, organic farmland growing healthy food planted by dedicated, environmentalist Christians, living on the land, holding the farms in common, who will work to spread that method for feeding all the lambs and sheep: Children of God.

This is a real-liberal plan (no trick) by which we may all stand. "But the liberal deviseth liberal things; and by liberal things shall he stand." Isaiah 32:8

Real liberal is a blessing, a noble thing, the opposite of churlish (wicked).

This is not to be to the exclusion of believing in the miracle power of God to bring forth as was done through Jesus filling five thousand with five loaves and two fishes with more left over than was started with. In fact, that's the point. God adds to those who work in faith. It's where "unscientific" faith comes in, faith beyond money and human technology.

For a more detailed discussion, read the applicable sections of the work There Is No Such Thing as a Conservative-Republican Christian: Jesus is a small-c communist.

It will take giving from many to be able to acquire useable farmland and the things needed to produce food and to sustain the communes. We will need to reach the many and move their hearts, to soften their hearts for the sake of righteousness.

This plan will develop as more and more people join in to help.

We may start with a small-scale farm (as small as five acres) to develop a prototype to scale up. The size at which we begin and the rate at which we scale up will depend upon funding and the expertise and experience of our membership.

We will strive to keep this website up to date with the plan and developments.

It's up to you to help bring forth what being a Christian was always supposed to be about.

Join Us.

Donate to this most worthy of causes (Jesus's cause).
Tithe or better if you are able, if the Holy Spirit gives you to do it, moves your heart to have the real faith to do it. Let us together bring forth the Christian Commons.
Please click the Donate button right now, and be as generous as you can. Thank you, and may God bless us all.

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    • Alan Hamer

      Hi Tom

      As mentioned I am in Oz
      we are selling up in the city and hoping to set up a 100 acer farm
      Yes no GMO ,We to are not tp please will our
      Goverment Our so called public sevants I have been thinking about when we find the right place I would like to concead and become independant from the
      Crown and the ruling Rothchilds.

      I have looked at the Hamish comunities that you have in the US.

      From what I am abel to see
      and under stand it looks interesing.

      Alan

      • http://www.realliberalchristianchurch.org Tom Usher

        Hi Alan,

        Explain "Oz."

        Does Australia allow secession? The U.S. federal government claims that the U.S. is a federation and not a confederation. It holds that no state may secede. The State of Texas is hinting at the idea of trying it again. We fought a four-year civil war over the issue — Big mistake!

        The Amish are Radical Reformationists who are still subject to many of the laws of the secular government. In fact, the State of Pennsylvania (I believe it is) has been hammering at some of them to stop using outhouses, which are just pits in the ground with little buildings over them for privacy while urinating of defecating. The state is complaining about how the groundwater will be impacted, as if the outhouses of the Amish are unnatural for the Earth to handle versus the toxic waste of the capitalist enterprises all over the state. Frankly, the capitalists and secularists want to break up the Amish.

        Also, what will you do for water there? My understanding is that the situation is dire. Will you desalinate?

        Tom

    • Thomas James

      Lately on conservative talk radio I heard that the govenor Arnold Schwarznegger is proposing the total elimination of welfare payments in order to balance the state budget. If he suceeds California will be the only industrialized state in the world that does not offer the poor any economic assistance.

      The conservative radio talk show hosts insists that food is not a fundemental human right nor is food an entiltlement and if that means that you starve to death then so be it and that this is good because it reduces the surplus population.

      The conservative Christian position is that God hates any form of welfare because welfare creates a dependency.

      Since all of these so called Christian fundementalists are so busy decrying welfare I have wondered what the bible says about it in of course the most literal sense. So far in my google search I found that in the bible that in at least a limited sense food was indeed considered a fundemental human right as there were gleaning laws that allowed the poor to extract surplusses that were left over from the initial harvest. Also the poor were allowed to feed off of other peoples land in order to satisfy their immediate hunger as long as they did not bring a basket to take any produce home with them. The poor did not have to ask a farmers permission in order to exercise any of these rights. So thus the poor could not be charged with tresspassing or theft although they would indeed be criminals in the eyes of an ignorant fundementalist Christian.

      The poor even owned the means to the production of food as land was allocated in equal shares amoung the tribes of Israel and even if the poor were forced to sell their land a year of Jubilee was provided so that their land would be returned. The poor also had access to credit at 0 percent interest.

      Of course all of these Christian fundementalists can not believe that there ever were any of these provisions for the poor as stated in the bible but rather proclaim that any harvesting of food that is not your property is theft and of course "Thou shalt not steal".

      The truth of the matter is that if stealing is really going on it is the poor who are having their food stolen from them.

      Of course the right wing Chrisitans claim that with charitable private contributions the problem of hunger will be solved. however conservative charitable organizations fail to recognize food as a fundemental human right because the conservative also has the right to withold his charity and to let people starve to death.

      • http://www.realliberalchristianchurch.org Tom Usher

        Thomas,

        Check out the following:

        "California Doesn't Need to Borrow Billions from Washington -- It Can Create Its Own Money," by Ellen Brown. AlterNet. May 27, 2009.

        Also: "The Way Out," by Richard Distelhorst. OEN. May 28, 2009 and comments.

        I'll have more to say on these. Also, for a long time, I've been calling for United States Notes as a step to a mammonless world. The Federal Reserve System must, and will, go.

        The whole Christian-capitalist position is a farce and totally unbiblical. There is no such thing as a Christian capitalist or military Christian or homosexual Christian. They are all just busily spreading the Big Lie — repeat it enough and the dupes will lap it up.

        Jesus didn't go by just the Old Testament either. The Earth is the inheritance of all. It's the logical, inescapable conclusion of Jesus's words and deeds. The whole point of the parables is to show that they murdered the Son of God to steal his inheritance and we are all the Children of God who will but accept it and act accordingly.

        We don't need money. Jesus called it deceitful and unrighteous, and wow, are they ever! We don't need taxes. He said the children of God are to be free of taxes. Therefore, we don't need banks and we don't need interest payments. Those things came out from the Satanic minded.

        I defy anyone to show me otherwise via Jesus's words as recorded in the Gospels. They can't do it. It's impossible. They need to put up or stop. Aren't you tired of their ducking the issues? Is "cowards" to harsh?

        What about "fools"? Isn't it true? Isn't there ample cause in the sense Jesus cautioned? They say that the Earth is not the God-given inheritance of the whole family of man, but they really know better. They are simply lying to themselves and to others. How may they escape damnation while heading in that direction?

        I warn them. I don't threaten or lie about it.

        Am I right, Thomas? Tell me. How do your read it.

        Tom

      • http://www.realliberalchristianchurch.org Tom Usher
    • https://me.yahoo.com/a/JrGnsXFvgOCEqrlAcBkUKndg8_CYRE_HZQ--#1fcbf Justice

      Dear Brothers,

      I am glad to read your site and see
      your efforts in spreading the word. Now, I would like to invite you in
      the country and establish Churches and conduct seminars. Indeed,
      you will be well received carrying out the Great Commission.

      These are good articles which strengthen our Faith!

      May he bless you so much hoping to hear from you.

      In Him,

      Justice.

      Tanzania E.A.

      • http://www.realliberalchristianchurch.org Tom Usher

        Well, thank you for the compliment and invitation. Is your legal name actually "Justice"?

        Unfortunately, I can't afford to travel there or anywhere else at the moment.

        As you know, the super-rich plutocrats are taking more and more for themselves and also keeping the economic system geared to theft rather than actually meeting the needs and decent wants of the whole of humanity.

        I have given the solution to that in even secular terms (United States Notes pegged to real productivity in real-time and based upon economic democracy); but alas, people are stuck in their ruts and refuse to change enough. I'm too radical for this planet right now. Perhaps, I'm way ahead of my time.

        Also, because I span the spectrum and more (vertically, horizontally, and in depth), I have not been well received here.

        That said, there is nothing preventing you from carrying out my visions (hopefully Jesus's; hopefully I have it heading in his direction and won't miss the mark; I believe I have) there if you have land that you call your own (meaning church-member land).

        If you would like help in doing that (guidance from afar), I'd be glad to consult. It would please me to no end to see Christian Commons spring up all over.

        Please be advised that I am atypical in my doctrine. I do not subscribe to any pre-existing denominational creed in total of which I am aware, and that includes the Nicene Creed. I do believe that I have done the best I've seen in zeroing in on what the original intent was, even though I'm sure I haven't done it justice, so to speak.

        Peace to you,

        Tom

    • christian charity

      Thanks and Fine christian charity are providing better services to the poor people
      www.ukchristiancharity.org/.....

    • RD

      Nice job brother.

    • Voluntaryist
      • http://www.realliberalchristianchurch.org/ Tom Usher

        A free market and free-market capitalism are two different things. A free market cannot exist without being non-coercive against voluntary communism (Christian). So-called free-market capitalism does not allow unbridled voluntary-communism because it would be capitalism's demise.

        That article says there is no non-coercive cooperative system but capitalism; however, I have described a system (Christian Commons) here that shows that, that idea is patently false.

        The linked article is full of illogical statements.

        In addition, the so-called self-interest first serving the needs of others is based upon giving to get, but Jesus showed that giving for its own sake is the more blessed path. If everyone were to follow Jesus rather than capitalism (mammonism), none would go without. There would be more and healthier bounty for all. This is a first principle where all capitalism, including so-called "free-market," which isn't free at all, fails, falls short.

        The capitalist mind-set is inferior and wrong, per Jesus Christ. The capitalist's heart is ultimately in the wrong place. Hearts being in the wrong place is what is wrong with the world and humanity.

        Furthermore, the Christian Commons does not focus upon greed alone but selfishness, self-centeredness, as the root of the problem. Of course, greed is selfishness magnified, and capitalism has in it no prohibition on greed that comes to dominate and drive the system but rather allows it and facilitates it.

        The author, C. Jay Engel, states, "What is more interesting is the fact that we are not told how any other “system” is going to cure man of his natural 'greedy disposition'."

        What is the point for arguing for "free-market capitalism" if the author believes minds cannot be changed or that there isn't objective and absolute truth in the universe? It makes no less sense to argue for the Christian Commons (voluntary Christian communism; redundancies) than it does to argue for free-market anything. We are arguing for a mind-set, for a condition of the heart. How does "free-market capitalism" "cure" humanity of coercion of the type ostensibly meant by the article's author? It doesn't. The author's approach to analysis is one-sided. He does not shine the light (in his case, darkness) back upon his own deficient philosophy.

        Where does this "free-market capitalism" exist without guns ultimately pointed at voluntary communists? I have interacted with Libertarian and Anarcho-Capitalists before on this subject and at length, and I have seen only one pacifist claiming to be a "free-market capitalist" (willing to allow voluntary communism to compete without violence and force against it by the capitalists). He, of course, didn't understand that his "free-market capitalism" would lose because cooperation based not on self first but out of the true love of others will out produce. It's the basis of Jesus's teachings. The New Testament points to it over and over and over. One should read it looking for it to grasp it.

        You will also note that the author is Old Testament. Jesus's system does, in fact, remove sin, which is why he was crucified by Talmudists convincing the Roman Empire to carry out the Sanhedrin's desires against Jesus's system.

        "Some may use the market to fuel greed and other may use the market to fuel their sexual immorality. But the market also fuels things like missions, feeding the poor, building prosperity to raise the living standards of everybody, and widespread literacy. And more importantly, the market fuels all these things without threat of violence. We cannot define capitalism by the moral failures of the few."

        Capitalism allows the moral failures. Christianity does not. Jesus applies progressive discipline resulting in excommunication of finally unrepentant heathens. Of course, he would still not starve them (where capitalism requires recompense as a system). Real gifts are outside capitalism. There's no such thing as a capitalistic gift for its own sake. Whatever is given in capitalism is always for the gain of the capitalist, who can work toward and achieve a monopoly in an unbridled, unregulated so-called free-market capitalistic system provided he may use force against voluntary communism, which has always happened where such has grown too much in the eyes of the capitalists (or do you believe pacifist capitalism would survive in direct competition with pacifist communism?).

        "That free exchange must be prevented because of greed also points to the curious want by the Statists to control the morality of others in society. While as libertarians we oppose government interfering in activities that are sinful unless the activity involves breaches the non-agression principle, it is obvious that the “greed-hawks” want to stomp down on those without the proper motivation for doing things. One gets an eerie feeling when he realizes that these Statists have as their goal to enforce the approved motivations that drive people and to punish based on the intentions of one’s heart. Are not these folks who want to eradicate “greed” by force the ultimate totalitarians?"

        Of course, that entire statement is completely irrelevant here, does not pertain at all to the Christian Commons. In fact, as I pointed out, the vast majority of capitalists, so-called free-market or otherwise, depend upon the state to coerce limitations upon voluntary communism.

        "... we say that in capitalism, if an individual is greedy, that greed can only be satisfied by helping out others."

        A greedy free-market capitalist (so-called) doesn't have to be helping out others when he, in an unbridled capitalistic manner, clear cuts too much forest, removes too many mountaintops, bottom trawls too much of the ocean, causes Deepwater-Horizon type leaks or Fukushima-like nuclear disasters or does any other of the evils done in the name of capitalism. It doesn't matter where cronyism enters in here. The greedy capitalists will do their evil regardless and do it more the less regulation there is. It doesn't matter that the so-called free-market might eventually get the message that, for instance, Anthropogenic Global Warming caused by too much carbon burning could tip the scales to catastrophe because by then, it might be too late (likely to a large degree).

        "... only God can deal with the greedy heart. Why must the State, as usual, seek to play the role of God?"

        There is state, and then there is state. The kingdom of God is a state, a state of the heart. Anyone with the law of God written on his or her heart will not have capitalism written there but the Christian Commons. He will also not allow in his system for any sin, aggressive or not, as if sin isn't insidious when it perpetually cloaks itself in sheep's clothing. It doesn't need to hit anyone over the head with a hammer to kill the flesh and soul.

        By the way, God is the ultimate totalitarian, and I love it: totally anti-capitalism, totally right, the whole and only real law.

        You will also notice that there are capitalist ads and such on this site. Why? Capitalism is dominant by coercion, and I seek funds to undo that. The current system, with the non-capitalist exception of parts of the secular state and some charities, will let people fall into starvation. If not for capitalism and other dominating, anti-Christ, selfish ideas, I wouldn't have to even try.

        Why is your Disqus activity private? Are you ashamed?

        • Voluntaryist

          Thanks for the detailed reply. I'm not going to replying to everything you say for the sake of my time & the likelihood that you have far too much invested in your ideas to correct them. I do want to clarify the meaning of some of the words that I believe you misuse & therefore undermine your whole argument.

          Capitalism; this at its core just a man or group of men, providing the funding for a project or business. You are being a capitalist in your attempt to acquire the funds/capital to fund the Christian Commons. In a free market, capitalism is completely natural & no coercion is ever involved.

          Coercion; this is where we have a huge disconnect. Coercion is violently forcing someone to do your will. This is the modus operandi of all earthly governments but has no place in a free market nor has anything to do with capitalism. How you can refer to adds on a website as coercion is mind boggling. Did those adds force you do do something against your God given free will? You talk of Anarcho-Capitalists that would use violent coercion against your communist ideal. I don't know where you found these so-called Anarcho-Capitalists but I, nor any true Anarcho-Capitalists, would never use actual physical violence (coercion) against you & your dream (communism). We wouldn't have to because the communist dream will always naturally destroy itself. There are Natural Law reasons why there are always mass murders whenever its tried, it is a completely unsustainable social system in a fallen world. Man's fallen nature will cause your Christian Commons to attract a multitude of lazy, dead-beat people that will consume all & more of the labor of your producers, until your utopia is destroyed. The only way to stop this from happening is to either use violence to remove the non-producers (private property rights) or violence to force them to produce (slavery). This is historically proven time & again (here's one example of some people that had reasons & goals similar to yours, archive.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard130.html) . Do you have a non-violent way of preventing non-believers from joining your commune?

          All your examples of the terrible things (clear cut forests, remove mountaintops, bottom trawls ocean, Deepwater-Horizon leak or Fukushima disasters) done in the name of capitalism have little to nothing to do with capitalism but much to do with government commons (communism). Who owns the forests? Who owns the mountains? Who owns the oceans? Who regulates & manages nuclear power? Government, or the common, ownership of every one of these is what leads directly to their over-use, abuse & non-conservation. If each of these was privately owned the owners would have the motivation by future profit or liability to conserve & maintain these resources. Liability is the sole reason for the invention of corporation, governments allow certain groups to set up corporations to shield them from the consequences of their bad & destructive choices. They are a wholly fictitious creation that has no place in any market based system & could not exist without being backed by governmental coercive force.

          You are right that ultimately (eternally) God is a totalitarian but in this life He gives each of us free will. He allows us to choose to follow Him or not. Therefore any man that is aggressing against & forcing other men to do his will cannot be of God. This simple fact condemns all earthly governments (secular states) as realms of Satan, as does the account of the temptation of Jesus. Jesus also carried & used money (capital) while on this earth & though He clearly taught against loving & trusting in money (capital) He did not forbid its use, as you obviously understand by your campaign to raise capital for your Commons project.

          I wish you peace & will clearly state that I will never use or support aggressive violence against you & your followers. Rather like any wise capitalist I would happily sell you the food you will surely need to survive in your Common communist society.

        • http://www.realliberalchristianchurch.org/ Tom Usher

          Capitalism is a term of many connotations. Your definition doesn't fit with others, such as that capitalists are the owners of the means of production. Those who work for them do not necessarily own any of those means and are under the given definition, not capitalists concerning the given organization/enterprise. Also, being a capitalist, versus acting as one, raises issues of ideology. Ideologically, I am not a capitalist, obviously.

          "In a free market, capitalism is completely natural & no coercion is ever involved."

          You are attempting to be a "purist." Though I find nothing pure or natural/real in capitalism. Are you familiar with the "club for protection" notion in so-called free-market capitalism? This is where capitalists purport to want to do away with the state with the exception of courts and such "clubs." The clubs are capitalists prepared to fight off (violently) communism, including the voluntary variety, if the competition from those communists, who are seen as having an inherent unfair advantage over capitalism, becomes such that the capitalists can't sell because nobody needs to buy.

          Concerning the concept of coercion, you are failing to include "non-violent" duress. Capitalists can, and many certainly do, work for as much market share as possible (currently checked primarily by state regulation) where eventually they can make demands as compensation that if not met, will deprive others of even the basic necessities of life.

          "How you can refer to adds on a website as coercion is mind boggling."

          Did you read what I wrote as making a direct statement that the ads are directly coercive? In a direct sense though, they are part of an ultimately coercive, inherently fatally flawed system (capitalism). I don't state that they are directly coercive. You aren't being forced to click them. This issue is one of semantics though. Clicking the ads, buying the products, etc., certainly benefits capitalists and typically furthers the capitalists' system, which is duress.

          Was Murry Rothbard a pacifist where voluntary communism is concerned? I've never seen that; but if it's there, fine. Perhaps the coercive so-called anarcho-capitalists have simply been the more vocal.

          "There are Natural Law reasons why there a re always mass murders whenever its tried, it is a completely unsustainable social system in a fallen world. Man's fallen nature will cause your Christian Commons to attract a multitude of lazy, dead-beat people that will consume all & more of the labor of your producers, until your utopia is destroyed. The only way to stop this from happening is to either use violence to remove the non-producers or violence to force them to produce. This is historically proven time & again (here's one example of some people that had reasons & goals similar to yours, archive.lewrockwell.com... . Do you have a non-violent way of preventing non-believers from joining your commune?"

          What prevents people from coming and taking away the capitalists' possessions? Violence. I address human so-called nature below. How can anyone join the Christian Commons who doesn't do what joining entails. Joining entails doing the work of the Christian Commons. Those who don't do that aren't members. If you mean how will we prevent evil people stealing from us, what does Jesus say about that? The issue always comes back to changing souls. You are either with that or against it.

          If I'm barking up the wrong tree, then so are you. You can't change people's fallen nature that will never adhere to your view of capitalism but will band together in violence to take what they want. What prevents them now other than the state and conscience?

          You don't apply to yourself the standard you apply to me. How convenient for you but how transparent for all to see right here, as you hide who you are and whom you're working for, as if that were possible to do where the elect are concern. They know where you've received your views, and it isn't heaven. It's not Jesus but those who hate him and do everything they can to twist and spin what he said, to leave out that which undoes their twisting.

          You don't understand Christianity. The Christian message is to bring forth heaven on this planet. Hopefully you know that heaven isn't capitalist. The Good News, the Gospel, is a message of change, of overcoming what you deem "fallen nature." You are never going to arrive there by saying that it cannot be done. It also won't do to fall back on God's supernatural abilities exercised at some future date and overlooking your clearly blocking attitude and approach, as the Gospel clearly calls upon people, you, to change now. Clinging to capitalism as your chosen ideology, promoting it over heavenly communism, is self-defeating.

          "All your examples of the terrible things (clear cut forests, remove mountaintops, bottom trawls ocean, Deepwater-Horizon leak or Fukushima disasters) done in the name of capitalism have little to nothing to do with capitalism but much to do with government commons (communism). Who owns the forests? Who owns the mountains? Who owns the oceans? Who regulates & manages nuclear power?"

          Your position completely fails to take into consideration all the environmental degradation that occurs on non-governmental property and by non-governmental means.

          You apparently ignore, for just one among numerous examples, the ranchers and farmers in the Amazon clear cutting and burning like mad while the government has only facilitated them by not doing enough to stop them. You'll blame government or the state for the actions of those who would not stop were there no government. The idea that were the government or state to disappear, those capitalists (and that's what they are) would miraculously look at the future and naturally curb their appetites now is comical, naive, gullible, etc. The only things that can stop them are either coercive threats or changes of heart. If they are going to change their hearts and minds, why stop short at your view of "free-market" capitalism? Why not just continue on to the enlightened position of Jesus Christ, who made perfectly clear that money is only a lack of faith and understanding systematically created by the self-centered.

          In addition, you failed to address monopolies, which anti-trust laws are designed in government to keep from forming. My point that unbridled capitalism would lead back to absolute, worldly monarchical powers vested in the most selfish and self-important soul is absolutely valid.

          "You are right that ultimately (eternally) God is a totalitarian but in this life He gives each of us free will. He allows us to choose to follow Him or not. Therefore any man that is aggressing against & forcing other men to do his will cannot be of God. This simple fact condemns all earthly governments (secular states) as realms of Satan, as does the account of the temptation of Jesus."

          All earthly governments are not secular. Even if they were, they certainly don't have to remain so; and as I pointed out above, heaven is to come to Earth. We are to bring forth fruits worthy of repentance.

          "I wish you peace & will clearly state that I will never use or support aggressive violence against you & your followers. Rather like any wise capitalist I would happily sell you the food you will surely need to survive in your Common communist society."

          Do you think holding out for recompense from the hungry, unselfish, working-members of the Christian Commons would stand you in good stead with God and Jesus? It wouldn't.

          It won't be necessary though, as your view is wrong that (unmolested, properly understood) communism always fails, else heaven fails.

          Are you ignorant of the Hutterites? They are professing Christians, of the pacifist, radical-reformation type, who live communally and who were so prosperous that at one point the provincial government in Canada outlawed their land purchases because they were out producing the non-communists. Of course, my Christian Commons concept goes further than what the Hutterites are doing, and the secular government stopped blocking those Hutterites (thankfully).

          The Hutterites also address your question about keeping non-believers from joining and consuming everything. Why are people not doing that right now to the Hutterites? They were though hounded and attacked and martyred by anti-Radical Reformationists back in Europe. That's why they moved to Canada and the US.

          "Jesus also carried & used money (capital) while on this earth & though He clearly taught against loving & trusting in money (capital) He did not forbid its use, as you obviously understand by your campaign to raise capital for your Commons project."

          Jesus could have lived entirely without money but tellingly had Judas carry the money and to dole it out to those who asked for it in exchange for whatever and likely to give away too to those in need of paying for things. Bringing forth heaven is a work in process. Your position is retarding/limiting that process.

          The Good Samaritan gave the inn keeper money to care for the injured "neighbor." A good Samaritan inn keeper would have told him to keep his money or to give it to the poor, unless the money were actually required by others (third parties) to be able to help the injured. Where would that way of being end in failure except where it runs into hearts and minds blocking it, such as yours. You block it by rather than donating to the Christian Commons, putting down the Commons as doomed by your own philosophy, mental and spiritual block/selfishness.

          You are currently part of the problem, not the solution, not heaven. You are not bringing forth the knowledge of God and heaven here. You are working to magnify the darkness against the light. You are working with anti-Christs against Christianity. You link to their sites over this one. That is not good. It is bad. It is wrong of you to do.

          You should be working for the Christian Commons, to bring it forth, to shine the light, to show the way of overcoming.

          And all that believed were together, and had all things common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. (Acts 2:44-45 KJV)

          That's the beginning of the wider Christian Commons on Earth. There was already a commons between and among Jesus and his disciples. They live from one purse. Jesus was not a capitalist. He was, and remains, a communist. You apparently don't like that. You have a problem with it. You're against it and, therefore, him.

          Do you realize what would happen were all those who rationalize not helping by appealing to the "against human nature" false meme were to just help instead? If each of them would tithe or better, the Commons would shortly exist producing healthy food abundantly, enough for all working the Commons land and to help struggling neighbors, who would not all take unfair advantage but rather be on the receiving end of love that doesn't demand payment but says help us to help yet others to help yet others in the same way until all the lambs and sheep are fed, per Jesus Christ, and in both body and soul.

          You are being your own "fallen nature." You are your own anti-salvation, self-fulfilling prophecy. Why be on the wrong side?

          Can't you see the light? Can you see it but are afraid to stand up out in the open for it where everybody will know it's you? What are you gaining by standing against heaven coming to Earth? What are you losing by it, your soul, even though you've told yourself you're saved? I both understand and don't understand you people.

          You didn't answer the question as to why your activity is private. Why don't you use your real identity? Why are you concealing who you are? You're not hiding from God. He says who you are: your root right now due to your shortsightedness and selfishness. Can't you hear Jesus's voice? Don't you recognize him? Don't you know words when you read them that put you in mind of him?

          "And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant." – Jesus Christ (Matthew 20:27 KJV)

          Does that servant hold out his hand to be paid or do those he serves also serve him likewise without exchanging any money? You know the answer, and it doesn't support your position but defeats it: Amen.

        • Voluntaryist

          You are right "capitalism is a term of many connotations.” Mostly thanks to men twisting it to fit their need to blame something for the problems in the world (other than the wicked earthly governments they usually worship). They desperately hope government will save them from responsibility in this life. And it is very convenient for your position to be able to “act" as a capitalist but not “be" one. You are right, I am a “purist” when it comes to the word free. Free means free. No mandatory governments, no mandatory “clubs”, no mandatory taxes, no mandatory & arbitrary regulations. Freedom is a goal to strive towards, but just like Christ's perfection, will never be fully attained in this life. At least under the natural freedom of anarcho-capitalism you can attempt to build whatever communal society you want, and no one has any right to stop you or use actual coercion (not your made-up version) against you. In a truly free market your imagined communistic "inherent unfair advantage over capitalism” will be free to flourish or more likely, not. This brings us to your imagined definition of coercion, "non-violent duress”, i did not “fail” to include this because it’s not coercion. No person has a right to another persons property no-matter how badly they think they “need” it. Thinking like this opens the door to a multitude of wicked atrocities carried out by those in “need” or “duress”. Usually breaking simple commandments like “You shall not steal” & “You shall not murder”. Plus un-compassionate situations like these are opportunities for true Christians to give to supply the need or (if they are the ones in need) exercise their prayer & faith. If you would take just a little time to think about the logical conclusions of “need” based rights (your theory of coercion), you could easily see the end results would be completely un-Biblical, wicked, & aggress against God’s natural laws.

          You speak much of pacifism but is your definition of it similar to your definition of coercion? I grew-up in a pacifistic Mennonite church & my wife was raised Amish so we have first-hand knowledge on what most people call pacifism & its a sham. I also did some quick research on Hutterites & found they like the other groups will call the police to protect or remove unwanted/unwelcome visitors. This is not true pacifism (which I do not profess), using violent force by proxy is no better, actually far worse, than defending yourself with force, but most pacifistic groups hypocritically think & speak of themselves as more righteous than others, because they don’t personally use force, but instead unwittingly “hire” their guns. Is this the path your group will take to prevent or remove the undesirables? And if you claim to be a pacifist how can you speak so kindly of governments, they get their base of power from violently robbing (taxing) non-violent people? No voter truly loves his neighbor, if he supports having a percentage of his neighbors production/labor/savings stolen by proxy (government) for things he wants/needs.

          I am trying to apply the same standard, but you assume some things that I’ve never said. I have never said nor believe that any system of social organization (ancap, communist, etc.) will change man’s nature. That is the work of the Gospel & nothing else. Neither do I believe as you do that we will ever create “heaven” on earth, that is not scriptural. We are to preach salvation (the Gospel), relieve suffering, & try to live peaceful lives till the return of Christ. All these are impeded & fought against by earthly governments, pyramid structured religions, & authoritarian societies (like communism), all these have committed the worst mass murderers of the last few millennia.

          "You don't understand Christianity.” Probably not your version. You believe the Word can mean what you want it to mean. You believe in man’s lie of Evolution, your foundation (Genesis) is therefore built on sand. It’s impossible to build a strong house (faith) on sand.

          Your "Amazon clear cutting” example is just a symptom of your opinion, your personal view of what is best, & I’m sure plenty of government meddling. I know for certain that the Brazilian government controlled the Amazon before these farmers, probably gave or sold the biggest tracts to cronies, for votes, & favors. Likely they (government) subsidize crops, skewing the market, incentivizing over-farming of unsustainable row crops. Also I know personally a local Mennonite man that lived in Brazil, he told me that property taxes were highest on forest & non productive ground further promoting the destruction of the rain forest by the government. But regardless of all that, who says man should not cut down & farm some of the Amazon? God’s first command was to tend the garden of Eden, but maybe you don’t believe that part of the bible because it’s Old Testament & in Genesis?

          There can never be monopolies in a free market. Government force & regulation is what insures the creation of monopolies, not the other way around. Government is the biggest most evil & destructive monopoly of all. I’m almost hesitant to post this short simple video explaining this truth because you seem to have the mis-guided belief that I religiously “follow” anyone when I share some of their knowledge, I don’t “follow” any man. C. Jay Engel, Murray Rothbard, etc. all have some knowledge, truth, & I agree with them on some points but that does not automatically mean I support every word or belief they have ever had or uttered. The same logic & principles apply to the maker of this video, he has some great points (like you) but he is completely wrong in some areas. There has only been one perfect , all wise, all knowing, man on this fallen earth (Jesus), there will never be another. Seeking another man that is perfect to follow is a fools errand that I admit I’ve been on (like most everyone else) in my life in the past, but I no longer do this. I do still try to glean bits & pieces of knowledge & truth, regardless of where it comes from. Truth can always withstand the hardest & most critical of questioning, if not, it isn’t truth. Anyway here’s the video: www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOBD6v.....8g1F4

          The above is also partly why I oppose communism, the Zeitgeist movement, Ubuntu community, Mennonites, Amish, Hutterites, etc. They all train & support the blind following of “leaders” & erode the very real responsibility of the individual to seek truth & righteousness. They teach child-like obedience to the “elders”, “founders”, etc. even down to the sustenance of daily life & are easily infiltrated & corrupted by evil men. It makes it very hard for people trained for their whole lifetime in “following” to stand-up to these corrupt authoritarian leaders. And I know the Scriptures about the church being a body, etc. but on Judgement Day we will individually give an account for our lives, not collectively or communally. If the individual was part of a cult the excuse “but I was part of a body” will not justify. Only the blood of Jesus & following Him will lead us to eternal life.

          "The idea that were the government or state to disappear, those capitalists (and that's what they are) would miraculously look at the future and naturally curb their appetites now is comical, naive, gullible, etc. The only things that can stop them are either coercive threats or changes of heart.” You are half right. Changes of heart are the best & most lasting way to stop evil appetites. But you are totally wrong on the need of "coercive threats” only defensive force & property rights are needed. The vast majority of theft & murder is not done by private individuals or even corporations. It is carried out by the deluded & deceived officers of government with wrongly believe government has rights that no man was ever given by God. This deception permeates the populations making them believe government theft (taxation) is right, good, & noble & that tax-cheats (those who try to keep their rightful property) are wicked & evil. They also believe that murder (war or most police shootings) are also right, good, & noble & anyone who tries to defend from invasion or unjust arrest is wicked & evil.

          You speak much of Jesus’ life & you claim to follow His path but he didn’t live as a communist, rather he lived as many preachers today off the generosity & tithes of followers & supporters most of which had jobs, houses, & money non-communally. A few miracles & some fishing also. The early church for a time lived on the wealth (capital) of the believers but this was never intended to be permeate or at least there are no Scriptures stating it as a command. It isolates every group that tries it or some other radical forms of “separation”, Hutterites, Mennonites, Amish, etc. They aren't a calling & drawing to the masses as Jesus openly commanded Christians to do. Also, just a few years after this “communal” living Paul speaks of working as a tent builder, not a lot of detail given but it doesn't seem like they were still sharing all things in common. This could be argued either way.

          All earthy governments ARE secular & are controlled by Satan as I clearly pointed out in the temptation of Jesus. They will remain so as long as they are based on coercive violence & theft. Not exactly fruits of the Spirit.

          "Do you think holding out for recompense from the hungry, unselfish, working-members of the Christian Commons would stand you in good stead with God and Jesus?” If you are all unselfish, working-members, & have the imaginary communistic “unfair advantage”, how could you possibly need anything? But if you did I would gladly do what I could to help, not because you would be owed or deserve anything but because helping those in need is a theme & command throughout the whole Bible. That said you would have absolutely no right to come to me & demand I help because of your twisted definition of coercion. There is no good or blessing in forced charity whether by your group or a government.

          I spoke a little about Hutterites earlier & they like most “pacifistic” groups use the force of government to ensure their property rights & evict any non-believers. Not very pacifistic. They, like most Anabaptist groups follow the people that fight for a little freedom & liberty on this fallen earth, they then enjoy this freedom, all the while hypocritically condemning everyone who is willing to defend (not referring to government or their mercenaries) the freedom & rights with which they are so blessed.

          If you are truly a perfect carbon copy of Jesus, as you seem to think, why are you still alive? Jesus was murdered/martyred in His early 30s at the hands of government, so why haven’t you? Are you married? Jesus wasn’t. Have children? Jesus didn’t. Jesus didn’t even have a Christian Commons farm/commune. He had no place to lay His head. Do you? You seem to like to self-righteously flog others for not following certain points of Jesus’ life but if you where truly honest & seeking truth you would see the speck in your own eye. Jesus was loving & compassionate to most, the only people he seemed to have little time or use for were the self-right religious leaders, corrupt temple extortion racket, & government leaders.

        • http://www.realliberalchristianchurch.org/ Tom Usher

          You appear to me to not be a very careful reader; and regardless, your conclusions are not logical in many places.

          For example, you write as if I said the Hutterites are perfected even though I said my position is not the same as theirs.

          I pointed to them as examples of communists who have not failed in that capacity: the point; the refutation (one) of your claim. You, however, don't acknowledge that they are one among many examples where communistic living doesn't end in the failure you allege has always taken place.

          That some of them will call the police raises semantical issues concerning the term "pacifism," but it doesn't show that their communism has failed because communism can't work.

          I don't feel that I must write everything I know or think when I use terms such as "pacifist" as pertains to Hutterites. If I were to be that demanding of myself, I wouldn't finish writing much. There would be seemingly endless qualifications. At the same time, I don't find that I leave many salient points wildly unqualified.

          I answered your question about people "joining" and abusing the Christian Commons by appealing to what Jesus said we are to do. Does he say to fight? If not and you know it, why do you give such little credit to me? Did you just not have it occur to you that he said to turn the other cheek and that I know that, or did you imagine that I'm so stupid that I'd point to his teaching but mean the opposite or nothing at all? Frankly, I don't really have much hope you'll understand.

          I don't have time right now to go through everything that you wrote to point out every error that I can see, and there are many. I will mostly leave it to other readers to see them for themselves by comparing what I wrote against your jumping to conclusions.

          The fact that you don't know that economic duress is coercion is simply amazing. Your lack of knowledge concerning the ecological disaster occurring in the Amazon is also amazing. You make so many wrong assumptions about that I simply tell you to read up on it.

          Just to be clear, not everything you wrote is wrong.

          It is though very interesting that you wrote so much while avoiding so much.

          Whether or not you affirm it, heaven is not capitalistic, heaven will come here, and we are to bring forth (which does not say that we alone, we without God, bring that heaven in total).

          Lastly, I am quite put off by your anonymity and blatant failure to answer concerning it.

        • Voluntaryist

          Did I ever accuse you of saying the Hutterites were perfect? No, I didn’t. I was just pointing out that they use the violence of the State & therefore are not pacifist. You are right their communist societies have survived, but within a quasi-capitalistic system, would they without capitalism? That is unknown, but the Puritans didn’t. You never have given a clear definition of what you call pacifism & claiming "I know" is not an answer. I’m not accusing you of anything but without a clear understanding of what you view as pacifism, it may include illogical positions just like your definition of coercion. Calling the police to potentially kill trespassers is “semantical”? This is the path of the Hutterites, the only example you gave of a group of successful communists, so that was why I was wanting more clarification on how you plan to deal with Commons membership, & why your definition of pacifism is so vital. If your position in all situations is turn the other cheek, you are a true pacifist but the Hutterite example is then mostly useless.

          I do not in any way imagine you to be stupid, quite the contrary, just last night I told my wife I was debating with someone much smarter than most I normally debate & its much harder. I’m sure your IQ & education far surpasses mine, but that alone does not make me believe everything someone says. There are millions of smart people in the world doing dumb & destructive things (not saying you’re in that group).

          I never said I didn’t "know that economic duress is coercion” (apparently I’m not the only one jumping to conclusions or not reading well) I clearly stated your definition is just wrong and gave my reasons.

          You may be right that I’m not up-to-date on my Amazon info, seems insignificant in comparison to the 260 million humans murdered by their governments in the last century (mostly by Communists). So you’ll have to excuse my alleged ignorance, murdered people are way higher on my list than trees. You still fail to denounce the biggest mass murdering organization (government) but expect me to get really worked up over the Amazon? To steal your phrase "simply amazing”.

          You are completely right heaven is not capitalistic but neither is it communistic. It is a benevolent dictatorship ruled by a completely perfect, all wise, all powerful God. Nothing we can/will have on this fallen earth.

          I’m completely baffled at your concern & insistence into my identity. If you know the name of a person will his words be different? More or less true? If I’m 80 would you listen but if I’m 12 you won’t? Or vise versa? What need could you possibly have for any of this? Do you like me so much you want to be FB friends? :-)

          My name is Benjamin. Feel better?

        • http://www.realliberalchristianchurch.org/ Tom Usher

          Hello Benjamin,

          "Did I ever accuse you of saying the Hutterites were perfect? No, I didn’t."

          What does that have to do with what I wrote? I said you write as if .... In addition, my point was that you harped not on the main topic but avoided it.

          "I was just pointing out that they use the violence of the State & therefore are not pacifist."

          We already went over that, and I addressed it sufficiently.

          "You are right their communist societies have survived, but within a quasi-capitalistic system, would they without capitalism?"

          That is a different position from the one you took to begin with. Now you don't have history showing what you were claiming before.

          "... the Puritans didn’t."

          The Puritans were Calvinists. Figure it out.

          "You never have given a clear definition of what you call pacifism & claiming "I know" is not an answer."

          The subject wasn't pacifism. Why should I have given a definition? A pacifist is what Jesus did.

          "Calling the police to potentially kill trespassers is “semantical”?"

          Of course it is. That though doesn't mean that I consider it pacifism. Do you ever read between lines? It doesn't seem it. Perhaps you have no practice. Perhaps it's never been suggested.

          "This is the path of the Hutterites, the only example you gave of a group of successful co mmunists...."

          Do you know how many "self-sufficient" religious orders there have been down through the ages? Do you know that many still exist? Do I now have to say that they are surrounded by capitalist enterprises and even have to add that those enterprises are not within your purists version before I'm allowed in your mind to have made a valid point?

          This site answers your questions. It has a menu. It also has a search feature.

          "If your position is turn the other cheek, you are a true pacifist but the Hutterite example is then mostly useless."

          It is useless for what? It was not useless in making the point that the statement that communism always fails is false. In addition, the Hutterites have a history going back to before any of their leadership's theology allowed for calling the police. They were severely persecuted (slaughtered) primarily for being "turn the other cheek." Your attitude wouldn't instill new confidence in them to take up that mantle again to that degree.

          "I do not in any way imagine you to be stupid, quite the contrary, just last night I told my wife I was debating with someone much smarter than most I normally debate & its much harder. I’m sure your IQ & education far surpasses mine, but that alone does not make me believe everything someone says."

          Well, that's either refreshing or designed to "soften" the target. I sense though that it is genuine.

          Here's the thing. I'm not expecting anyone to simply take what I say without thinking about it or questioning things. What I do want though is for people to face it when they've been shown that they've been misled and to change accordingly. Suffice it to say that I think people are more stubborn these days than at any other time in my life. They are less apt to care whether they are actually right or wrong but just "getting on" or "getting along" with the powers that be, whether worldly or satanic or both (pro- and anti- "government").

          "There are millions of smart people in the world doing dumb & destructive things (not saying you’re in that group)."

          "Smart" is also subject to semantics. Ultimately, I believe you would agree, intelligence is not doing dumb and destructive things where the destruction is of the good.

          "I never said I didn’t "know that economic duress is coercion” (apparently I’m not the only one jumping to conclusions or not reading well) I clearly stated your definition is just wrong and gave my reasons."

          It's not possible to have it both ways. It's illogical. If my definition is that duress can be coercion but you disagree with that, then it necessarily follows that you don't "know" the that, that definition is how it is. Perhaps your writing wasn't as clear as you think in your mind. This is what you wrote: "This brings us to your imagined definition of coercion, "non-violent duress”, i did not “fail” to include this because it’s not coercion." If there is another way other than how I took it, I don't see it.

          "You may be right that I’m not up-to-date on my Amazon info, seems insignificant in comparison to the 260 million humans murdered by their governments in the last century (mostly by Communists)."

          Violent Marxism is irrelevant to whether or not the Christian Commons is the correct path versus your "free-market" capitalism. I raised the Amazon because it signifies a great many capitalists raping that part of the planet in a decidedly satanic manner because their time is short and they want what they want right now and future generations be damned (too).

          "So you’ll have to excuse my alleged ignorance, murdered people are way higher on my list than trees."

          If the Amazon goes, there will be plenty of death as a direct consequence. What do you think this means:

          "And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth." (Revelation 11:18 KJV)

          "... destroy them which destroy the earth." You don't subscribe to "Creation Care"? That's typically capitalistic.

          "You still fail to denounce the biggest mass murdering organization (government) but expect me to get really worked up over the Amazon?"

          You mean to tell me that you think I could write what you've read here and not be anti-war? Your point though is that government, per se, is evil. You use the anarchists' symbol, so along with what you've written here, I don't think it's a stretch on my part to conclude that you are simply anti-government. At least you don't make a habit of qualifying your position by first stating that you are well aware that the kingdom of God is government. In addition, I don't know where you come down on the Apostles, but the following is attributed to Peter:

          "But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities." (2 Peter 2:10 KJV)

          "... despise government ...." That's you here, so far. To be clear, I don't consider either Peter or Paul to be able to hold a candle to Jesus. I do, however, take Peter's point there concerning "despise government," per se. I do not despise government at all. I despise bad government. I absolutely love good government. I also consider anarchy to be confused for reasons that should already be clear to you.

          "You are completely right heaven is not capitalistic but neither is it communistic. It is a benevolent dictatorship ruled by a completely perfect, all wise, all powerful God. Nothing we can/will have on this fallen earth."

          Your Christian training is lacking. Your theology is mistaken. Communism is sharing. If heaven is going to be your home, how is it that you think God won't share ownership of it with you? Jesus said that all that is God's is already his, was already his. What do you think Jesus meant when he told his followers that he was going to make a place for them in heaven. Was he going to say, "Here you go, but it's not yours; you don't share it; you don't own heaven with the rest of us here"? You don't understand. How can you become one in spirit but then withhold? Are you not a son of God?

          What does this mean? "Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath." (Luke 12:44 KJV)

          How may we each simultaneously be the ruler over everything that is God's? Will you now quibble with me about it or be glad?

          Don't you know what this means: "And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine." (Luke 15:31 KJV)

          "And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." (Matthew 16:19 KJV)

          What happens in heaven when you let capitalism loose here? Don't tell me I have to explain it to you. You reap what you sow. You don't sow capitalism here and reap non-capitalism in what awaits you.

          Furthermore, "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea." (Revelation 21:1 KJV)

          So it is, if you receive it.

          "I’m completely baffled at your concern & insistence into my identity."

          "No man, when he hath lighted a candle, putteth it in a secret place, neither under a bushel, but on a candlestick, that they which come in may see the light." (Luke 11:33 KJV)

          How can you shine the light while being anonymous? That's not taking up your cross. You complain about the Hutterites calling the police rather than not resisting evil. Here you've been though unwilling to attach your views to your known identity. If this is lost on you, I don't know what I can do for you.

          "My name is Benjamin. Feel better?" It's perhaps a start. It remains to be seen.

          Now, Benjamin, I think we need to give it a rest, as I have given you a great deal of time which has meant not doing other things that need attention.

          If you are a son of God and a brother of Jesus, you will allow the things expressed here to work within. You will not work to try to score points but rather seek righteousness. If you do that, we will be much more than being Facebook anything could ever offer.

          I like you more than you know. Remember though that Jesus likes the rich fellow who failed to give all to the poor and then follow Jesus. If you are a true brother in Christ, then everything you have is mine and vice versa; and neither of us would ever abuse that situation. Think about it. The kingdom is a pearl, and I've shared it. Don't lose it.

          Peace. Bless your house.

        • Voluntaryist

          Thank you for the very interesting discussion. I was completely genuine with my beliefs throughout this whole discussion, but I especially wanted to make that clear in regards to your obvious intelligence, my statement was in no way something underhanded. I hope I wasn't harsh or aggressive (been accused of both in the past). I just don't mince words, with people that, I perceive, aren't beating around the bush when telling me how they see things. I do feel a little confused by your accusations that I'm not a careful reader but later say to me "Do you ever read between lines? It doesn't seem it." Which should I be because I cannot be both? Regardless I do greatly appreciate all your time and effort to share your views with me, I definitely didn't expect this when I happened on your website and posted that article. You've given me much to consider and further my life-long education, I hope I did the same for you. I think we both want very similar things to happen in the world (peace, justice, conservation, care for the poor, orphans, widows, etc) but are views of how to get them done are drastically different. I truly pray that you are blessed, with Godly wisdom, understanding, & peace. And if your way of communism is truly of God, Romans 8:31, What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?