What did the laissez faire capitalists (libertarians and followers of Ayn Rand like Alan Greenspan, Ronald Reagan, Margaret Thatcher, etc.) bring to the U.S. economy?

  • USAID officials have pointed out a 41 percent increase in prices for wheat, corn, rice and other cereals over the past six months. These end up being reflected in retail prices in the grocery stores.
  • Food and fuel prices are climbing very quickly while housing values are going into the basket.
  • The Federal Reserve says American-home equity is below 50 percent for the first time since 1945.
  • Unemployment is jumping.
  • Merrill Lynch reports that 36 percent of American-household disposable income is spent on food, energy, and medical expenses. That's the highest percent since records started being kept in 1960.
  • 4 million homes may be foreclosed.
  • Record numbers of Americans reduced to food stamps.

Alan Greenspan said this recession is "likely to be judged in retrospect as the most wrenching since the end of the Second World War." Well, it will be worst than that.

This is all due to the Ponzi scheme Greenspan knew all about before it was hatched. It was all just a way to make the richest of the rich even richer while acting as a boot on the back of the necks of the poor. Keep them down so they'll remain subservient to our egos. That's what the ultra-rich plutocrats are about.

The insiders are bandits. Greenspan was hired by a firm that made a huge fortune by knowing that the economy would tank. Greenspan claims he didn't know the economy would tank. Why then did that company hire him since they are so much smarter than he is? It's obvious isn't it? It's what the revolving door is all about.

Look at Dick Cheney setting up Halliburton with contracts while he was Secretary of Defense and then becoming their CEO afterwards. Look what happened to his personal earnings.

Tom Usher

About Tom Usher

Employment: 2008 - present, website developer and writer. 2015 - present, insurance broker. Education: Arizona State University, Bachelor of Science in Political Science. City University of Seattle, graduate studies in Public Administration. Volunteerism: 2007 - present, president of the Real Liberal Christian Church and Christian Commons Project.


  1. Rob Diego says:

    If you think that Laissez Faire capitalists have been in charge of our economy, I would remind you that Ayn Rand has been dead for over 30 years and Alan Greenspan retired over a year ago. And you have no idea what Laissez Faire capitalism is because we have one of the most regulated economies in our nation's history. And if you think that the Bush administration is for Laissez Faire capitalism, you haven't been watching the Bush administration which fostered the Sarbannes-Oxley Bill which created onerous regulations on the financial services industry and is responsible for increased costs and serious problems in that industry. Also, back to Greenspan, his leadership is responsible for one of the longest periods of economic prosperity, including nearly stable prices, in the history of our nation.

  2. Tom Usher Tom Usher says:

    Hello Rob Diego,

    Thank you for stopping in. Thank you also for your comment. I'd rather people voice themselves for the sake of getting at the root cause of things than just disagreeing without considering things in depth or engaging in fruitful debate. I hope our communication will prove fruitful.

    I don't think laissez faire capitalist (as you consider them) have been completely in charge in quite the sense you mean. It is clear, however, that those who were in favor of "let do" capitalism (as monopolistic as they can position themselves) started making a huge comeback in the mainstream right about the time George McGovern lost his bid for the presidency. The movement to greater egalitarianism was deliberately targeted by many ultra-rich families who funded think tanks and the like where those they patronized sat around conjuring up negative propaganda and schemes to destroy egalitarian sentiments within the general population. The Cato Institute is a prime example that was largely funded (still is) by tobacco money. Of course, we all know that tobacco is highly addictive. It's a mundanely (not divinely) legalized addictive substance pushed by the tobacco capitalists. Those tobacco capitalist want to be allow to do what they want to continue and even increase the evil profits they take from people's addiction to the product they bring to market. We also know that that product causes lung cancer and other illnesses. Those in favor of unbridled capitalism (laissez faire) are in favor of the people allowing themselves collectively to be subjected to the marketing (including advertising; evil temptation offered up) of the tobacco libertarians and objectivists. The tobacco example is analogous to the unbridled violence and sex industries, so this isn't viewing capitalism within a narrow example that doesn't apply to the whole capitalist system.

    Do I believe in the democratic system of the U.S. where that system sets up those of irreconcilable spirits under coercive forces (violent forces) to enforce rules? No I do not. It's antichrist. It's the divided house that can not stand. It will rightly fall. Jesus was not and is not coercive. He's right. Judge not. Condemn not. Sentence not. Punish not. Warn. Tell the truth. Don't add to offence with force. Peace, love, and truth go hand-in-hand.

    We also have the historic fact of the huge influence Milton Friedman and his ilk had upon the swing to deregulation (the direction of laissez faire). The pendulum went from increasing regulation to a slow down and then reversal. Also, laissez faire capitalists went out about the world in search of more prey and into regions where regulation of occupational safety and health and environmental safety and living wages and the like were all extremely weak or nonexistent, all to make that much more private gain with as little sharing as possible (greedy as Hell). We also know that dictatorships willing to play along were bribed and also threatened. It still goes on of course.

    I've read all about the front philosophy of the libertarians. I know that most of the common folk are minions duped by those sitting atop their upside-down pyramid of greed and hoarding. Those common folk so-called libertarians are as the lowest ranking initiates in the various secret societies who don't know the hidden agenda of those at the "top." Of course, the agenda isn't hidden. All one has to do is look at the current state of affairs. You shall know them by their fruit.

    The libertarians on the frontlines throw out some good lines until one looks deeper. The top monopolists are the top capitalists. They are the bankers who hired Alan Greenspan to do their dirty work. They control the currency before the booms and busts. There's no escaping that fact. They aren't for the giving and sharing economy of Jesus Christ. They are against Jesus. They hate Jesus because they don't love his message and fight it. They are for capitalism where they own everything and charge everyone else while keeping those others down (relatively speaking). That's the nature of their competitive model. They want to own the very air we breathe. They want it to become a commodity for which they will charge to take their cut of the profits. However, God gave us the air as the inheritance of all of us. It isn't there to be stolen by capitalists. Just look at the evil that is privatized water. I'm sorry for you if you can't see this. Search your soul.

    As for Ayn Rand having been dead, what difference does that make? Her philosophy has current followers. Hitler's been dead too, but there are still Nazis. As for Alan Greenspan having retired over a year ago, again, what's your point? The mess wasn't created within just the last 12 months. He was there while it was created (built upon the whole mess that is capitalism — a system the heart of which is selfishness that is absolutely pure evil).

    As for George W. Bush and his administration, he pushes as much as he can get away with for the sake of the plutocrats. Those plutocrats don't want the common people, whom they see as uppity, telling them what to do. The plutocrats have set themselves up in extremely luxuriant circumstances off, among other evil things, money-laundering, drug running, weapons deals (both mundanely legal and black-market), the sex-slave industry, and taxing to pay interest on the privatized currency (which if one believes in the way of mammon, should at the very least be nationalized) they completely control.

    Why are the people working (when they aren't being thrown into the so-called systemic-unemployment lines promoted by Alan Greenspan) to pay taxes to pay interest on private currency controlled by a handful of private-banking families?

    You also write of the financial-services industry as if it's some beneficent entity. That financial-services industry belongs to the plutocrats who manipulate it to start wars for profit and to destabilize whole nations so they, the plutocrats, remain on top and make the most mammon they can even while little, innocent children have their faces blown off on account of it all. Also, Sarbannes-Oxley (SOX) didn't come into existence in a vacuum. It is a direct attempt to deal with the huge corruption that went before. If capitalists at Enron and the other evil corporations owned and run by those whose hearts are far from God hadn't been so evil, Sarbannes-Oxley wouldn't have been brought forth. Are you against traffic lights? Would it be better not to have them? Do you obey them out of fear of a ticket or because doing so doesn't risk causing others harm? Are you an apologist for the likes of Enron? If so, your spirit is not of God.

    Lastly on Alan Greenspan, he was there when the dot-com bubble was being blown up and then was popped. He knew full well what he was doing when the housing bubble was being filled with more and more air. He encouraged it and helped it along via his interest rate policies and practices. He knew what was going to happen. Do you think he forgot the pattern? If so, you must believe he was extremely stupid and ignorant about capitalistic economics. However, just listen to his tap dancing to discern the truth of that. They picked him as their front man for his tap dancing abilities.

    You also point to economic prosperity while ignoring what's happening that is all the direct consequence of the actions and inactions of the Federal Reserve and all those private banks and their stockholders who own them. Wake up my friend. The economy is run by the greedy. You are either duped or you know and have been sent by those who are paying you to try to defeat the facts (in which case you're still being duped but without being quite as innocent).

    What do you want for the world and its people? Don't you agree with Jesus's New Commandment? Don't you think his message is better than selfish capitalism? Do you really believe in the system where we the human family charge our brothers and sisters to come to the table to take sustenance for their bodies? Which spirit are you with? Do you really believe people don't respond to unselfishness and cooperation, or do you believe they've had that drivel conditioned into them but can break out of the trance (overcome).

    What do I want for the likes of the Alan Greenspans and the plutocrats of the world? I want them to turn. I certainly don't want to punish them.

    If you reply, please address all the points I've raised.

    May God bless.

    Tom Usher

  3. Rob Diego says:

    My point is that advocates of Laissez Faire have almost no influence in the U.S. They control nothing and have no influence on the gargantuan beauracracy that thinks we can solve all problems by tweaking this and tweaking that. The fundamental point is that this country is run by government technocrats not by advocates of Laissez Faire. My point on Rand being dead and Greenspan being retired is that your post complains about a situation that did not arise until he left and Rand's influence in our society is marginal at best, even miniscule. While Greenspan was in his position, he almost always had to compromise his Laissez Faire principles with technocrats who beleived in and advocated regulation of the economy...which is not a Laissez Faire position; it is a compromise on the principle of Laissez Faire. You seem to be using Rand and Greenspan as strawmen in order to discredit a philosophy that does not have any sway in this country. You cannot blame the present situation on Rand, Greenspan or even Friedman since none of their principles have been in effect...ever...and when in effect, ever so slightly. If anything can be blamed for the situation in the U.S. it is those who advocate regulation of the economy. As such, these advocates merely advocate "solutions" that distort free trade and create inefficiencies in the marketplace; and then these inefficiencies are the basis for more regulations to cover up for the inefficiencies created by previous regulations. A free market, a truly Laissez Faire market, has not existed in this country for many many decades. We are a mixed economy with some freedom and mostly regulations, and the best benefit Greenspan gave us is that he blunted the impact of all the regulations by making prudent adjustments to the money supply, gave good advice to Presidents and other leaders and businessmen all over the world and, in effect, kept us going in spite of ourselves. You should read his latest book where he discusses this. The Internet bubble was not created by Greenspan and, as a technology employee, I was put out of work by it. Greenspan did nothing to weaken the bubble bursting and, in effect, he did the right thing. He let it play out and let the economy work through it rather than try to blunt the damage by creating additional distortions. Also, I don't know where you are but, really, you are the victim of a lot of apparent misinformation. We are not all starving over here. The media is trying to talk the economy down solely for the sake of electing a Democrat. They may succeed in creating a downturn but really things are not bad at all. There are no soup lines and most of us still dress nicely, eat 3 meals and take a bath every day. Regarding the financial services industry, really, we don't do anyone any good by demonizing hard working people as if they were some sort of evil conspiracy. That is the virtue of what little capitalism we do have here...everyone is really just trying to make a living. Marxist conspiracy theories and demonization do not solve economic problems, they just create scapegoats that fascists like Obama and Hillary use in order to justify more regulations and power grabs and higher taxes and massive government programs. There is the real danger to our society, not Greenspan and Laissez Faire but socialists/fascists who will say anything and tell any lie they think will work to get them power and control. And so you don't get the wrong impression, I am not a Republican. I hate most of their policies too.

  4. Tom Usher Tom Usher says:

    Hello again, Rob,

    I'll take your points one at a time and in order.

    You have severely underestimated the influence Milton Friedman and the others had upon the U.S. and the U.K. and elsewhere. The U.S. definitely experienced a huge swing from Keynesianism toward the economics of the Chicago School and the Austrian School of economic thought. They bragged about it. Where have you been? They didn't undo every last aspect, but they certainly did a great deal. They did as much as they could to go back to Hoover right before the Great Depression (which was the result of the same Ponzi scheme they've just pulled off again). Just look at the unions. They went down some 60% or more to my understanding. Look at the so-called welfare reforms. Look at the huge privatization that has occurred throughout the government. Look at NAFTA and other such agreements. That move is killing people in the U.S. and Mexico. There were much better ways to run the house (the meaning of economics).

    Also, it isn't government bureaucrats so much anymore as corporate bureaucrats. That switch was just so the ultra-rich could get their hands on the tax dollars being paid out as government contracts. It's just more of the scheme to bilk the middle and lower classes, just like the Federal Reserve Act and the federal income tax. I don't see how you can't see that.

    You are wrong that the current situation didn't arise until after Greenspan left. It was well in the making. The bubble was being inflated the whole time under his watch.

    The free trade you mention doesn't address the Enrons of the world. Look, I'm no Democrat, but don't you know that the likes of Enron stole some $9 billion from the energy consumers of California none of which has been put back? Don't you know that those forces for unbridled capitalism, who operate under "let the buyer beware" and want zero regulation, caused the rolling brownouts and blackouts across that state and brought down a Democratic governor with sheer lies?

    Also, if you're for freedom, then you must be against all coercion. Are you against laws the forbid people to live communistically if that's what they choose? Are you against the U.S. using force anywhere in the world to make people live under capitalism, whether mixed or not?

    On one hand you say that regulation is bad but on the other you say Greenspan made "prudent adjustments to the money supply."

    You completely ignored much of what I wrote. What about the currency and taxes, should the bankers own the currency or should the U.S. treasury issue interest-free currency?

    You are under the impression that Greenspan was right while interest rates were so low allowing for the creation of so much debt (wealth that wasn't real) that can not now be paid off and thereby putting millions out of homes they thought they'd be able to afford because they were unaware of the coming real estate bust? That's heartless. Greenspan knew and only contributed to the then coming problem. You ignore that. The libertarians would say you're shilling for the plutocrats. Are you shilling on purpose or just unawares? Don't you believe that the ultra-rich are swindling everyone else out of his and her rightful inheritance from God?

    As for people not hurting financially in the U.S., you obviously haven't looked. Did you read the main post on the site? It's the first one on the home page. Read it and then see if you can tell me that people aren't hurting. Besides, the very post you're commenting on cites devastating economic news concerning actual people. You're still well dressed and bathing daily, but do you really believe everyone else who was doing that not long ago is still in exactly your same position? Lot's of people who were seemingly well off are no longer and on account of the greed of yet others who stole from them under a "let do," unregulated, subprime mortgage feeding frenzy topped off by hedge funds that must now be supposedly bailed out because as the ultra-rich knew going in, they are "too big to fail" (to be allowed to fail). Do you really imagine that the worst is over? We're about 1 foot up at least a 50 foot wave. Wait until it crashes on the beach and slams the middle class in to the sand a few times before being so sure that all is fine.

    If you think there aren't any soup kitchens, just look up food banks in your yellow pages and take a trip to see how the other half lives. Ask the food bank operators how it's going and ask them if all the people visiting are lazy and whether it's all their faults for their economic situations. Really, you need to read Jesus. Put yourself in the shoes of the other people who obviously haven't been as fortunate as you have.

    As for the financial-service industry, they aren't all hard working people. There are many hard working people, well-meaning people, working for those at the top of that industry, but those aren't the people calling the shots. They aren't the capitalists. They don't own (control) the mega-corporations, even if they have some shares. It's the big shots I'm talking about. I think you know that.

    As for Marxist conspiracy theories, I didn't mention Marx. I don't follow Marx. Marx was an atheist and militant far from the Holy Spirit or kingdom of God. It's Jesus's teaching and life example we all should be following. The term "demonization" doesn't worry me. Jesus used the term "demons." Evil's evil. It does harm to avoid calling it what it is.

    Selfishness is evil. Capitalism is based upon evil. I don't like it. Giving and sharing is the right way, not a mean-spirited, spiritually blind and dead system that depends upon a medium-of-exchange such as mammon. Trade isn't what God wants. It's not what Jesus called us to do. He said give. Trade is holding out for selfish reasons. The wicked promote selfishness. They lead astray.

    Those who love the truth love hearing this. They know that people ought to not live under capitalism or any coercive regime but rather as true brothers and sisters all under righteousness. The calling of capitalism is low and dark. It's not enlightened. It's not uplifting. It's a baser thing. It needs to be overcome for the evil temptation it is.

    Again, you really avoided much of what I wrote. If you reply again, which you're welcome to do, please do more to cover all the points. I think you should re-read my comments above.

    God bless.

    Tom Usher

  5. Rob Diego says:

    Unfortunately, it is you who is exaggerating. Capitalists and Laissez Faire advocates are a very small minority in the U.S. and I've been all over the country and read hundreds of books on the subject. Friedman was not an advocate of Laissez Faire but of a mixed economy. He has never advocated full Laissez Faire. In essence he was a fascist who allowed some freedom but still wanted government regulations. Rand is the only advocate of Laissez Faire that I know of and she is very marginal in influence. Greenspan was a compromiser who violated his own principles by becoming a regulator. In full Laissez Faire there are no regulators. The best thing about him is that he understood markets.

    And we are not starving here. You act like there is a depression going on here. It just isn't true.

    Here is the flaw in your argument. You believe selfishness is evil and that is an untenable position. Everyone must be selfish to some degree even to survive. If your view were correct, that selfishness is evil, then the worst economies would be those with the most selfishness. If you mean that selfishness works and provides abundance for people...and we are mostly all living in abundance here in the U.S., then why would you contend that selfishness is evil? Your theories about all the bad things going on over here are just wrong...there is no vast conspiracy of evil non-Christians over here. It is just people trying to make a living and, yes, being selfish enough to want to feed their families and survive well. The problem with conspiracy theories of selfish people is that it doesn't comport with reality and so most of your criticisms miss the mark, make no sense. That is what is wrong with conspiracy theories. If capitalism is dark and evil, why are there more happy people in the U.S. than in controlled economies? Why do people in other countries want to be like us, want our jeans, our movies, our entertainers, our iPods? Because everything about America is about freedom and smiling happy faces. If people would be better off without capitalism why don't we all want to get rid of capitalism so we can have better lives? The answer is that there is no system that can help create better lives except a system that fosters individual rights and individual self-assertion; capitalism. The Dark Ages are the testimony to the affluence (or lack thereof) of systems that are not capitalist. If you want that, then show me how theocracy can create happy lives where people can eat and thrive? People sacrificing everything to others doesn't get it because the first thing they must sacrifice is their minds and that is what capitalism thrives upon, free thinking, free minds, and the freedom to bring new ideas (that benefit people) to market. What is evil about that?

    The fact of the matter is, the reason why the U.S. is still somewhat capitalist is not because of Rand and Greenspan but because capitalism, even as regulated as it now is, works and delivers survival...for all of us little people. The poor in the U.S. have the highest standard of living of any poor population in the history of the world. Most of them have cars, homes, electricity, HDTVs, stereos, and they have food to eat. Many are overweight because they have abundance of food. Invoking Jesus, with all due respect, doesn't feed people...new ideas and new products feed people and that is only possible in a capitalist system. You can argue about this, claim this conspiracy or that, expose Enron or some other minor scandal the fact is, the things that go wrong in the U.S. have very little impact on the lives of people because most of those people are still free to live and produce. You lose your job in America, you find another one. You work for Enron, you take your skills elsewhere. You lose your Enron pension, the government makes it up. Enron was a blip that had nothing to do with capitalism and the effect of it was miniscule. Even Katrina had little impact on the economy and most of the victims went to Houston and are still there living well...absorbed by the Houston economy and being productive. When you say selfishness is evil you are saying productivity is evil and when you say that, well, what is the point of listening?

    I read a post somewhere else where a Canadian made a suggestion that the current situation in the U.S. financial markets was so bad that it was time the U.S. got smart and went to socialism. I suggest that one little economic statistic is not enough for an entire nation to just chuck it's decade's old economic system and create a socialist system that has failed all over the world, has caused murder, concentration camps and genocide. Woah, cowboy. Let's not be so silly as to think the case has been made for socialism or theocracy. We aren't starving here. Really we aren't. Perhaps some people wish we were...then they could use it to justify their envy of us.

  6. Tom Usher Tom Usher says:

    Hello once again, Rob,

    Laissez faire capitalism is a direction. Greenspan and Friedman led in the direction of laissez faire capitalism from Keynesianism. Just because the U.S. hasn't abandoned all regulation doesn't negate that fact. Huge so-called privatization (corporatization) has occurred, and it certainly hasn't truly improved things.

    The United States moved in the direction of laissez faire capitalism versus its opposite that is real Christianity. It deregulated hugely where in real Christianity, everyone is regulated by adherence to the New Commandment. That too is a fact.

    There were plans in place to regulate the process of allowing new chemicals to be brought into the marketplace for instance. That was totally scrapped, and bad chemicals have gotten out that would not have. That's under the coercive, non-Christian system that is the mixed economy of the ostensible democracy. It would have been very much as the FDA is toward allowing drugs into the marketplace. Don't jump to conclusions here.

    I know the FDA is a revolving door for the major drug manufacturers. The industry is self-regulating in that regard and misuses the FDA to keep down alternatives. Nevertheless, chemical companies have brought things to market that they should not have. Many companies have brought many things into the marketplace that should not be there because they are exceedingly harmful.

    Bt crops are a bad idea. GM crops have been rushed to market in pursuit of the fast buck before some other greedy company gets there first. It isn't a thoughtful, considerate, caring, compassionate process. Get it while the getting is good, and damn the next generation. Let them worry about the repercussions. That's the mentality of many mammon worshippers. It's plain to see. If you don't see it, your spiritual eyes are shut and you're in denial. It's akin to the sociopathic. It comes from overusing the more reptilian regions of the brain matter rather than the higher, more evolved, frontal and temporal lobes where more unselfish thinking occurs.

    As for Ayn Rand, she had much more influence than you realize. Her books were best sellers, and she planted many false seeds in millions of brains. You're misled and misleading people with your statement about her. She was an atheist out to undermine Jesus's teachings as much as possible.

    You aren't reading what I've written. You're reading things in that I haven't said. I didn't say the U.S. is in a depression already. It is a fact though that the U.S. and the whole world is facing major problems that can't be solved by laissez faire capitalism. That spirit doesn't have what it takes. That spirit misleads away from what it will take. It will take unselfish cooperation. Laissez faire capitalism is the antithesis of what it will take. Laissez faire capitalism doesn't work and never will in bringing forth righteousness or goodness and Heaven on Earth. It can only bring forth illusion and manifest-Hell. Will you learn when the economy goes down, or will you continue in denial?

    There is no flaw in my position about selfishness being evil. You've used illogic in trying to rebuke it. Your premises are wrong and your false conclusion necessarily follows. Abundance does not result by robbing Peter to pay Paul. Capitalism robs others so fewer may live in decadence they call prosperity. This of course makes no sense to you because you are ignoring the pain and suffering that is covered over and masked by the mainstream media that is owned and operated by the few who live in your wrong definition of abundance.

    My position is consistent end-to-end.

    It is a total falsehood that selfishness is required for survival. Survival does not depend upon putting oneself first. It is completely possible and better and best to put the welfare of others first. It is better that all serve each other. The spirit that puts oneself first and foremost is the spirit that has caused all the problems in this world from the beginning. By definition, it's the satanic spirit. That spirit is exactly the spirit Jesus rejected. He refused to bow down to worship it. He rather washed his follower's feet. Have you never thought about these things before?

    You wrote, "If your view were correct, that selfishness is evil, then the worst economies would be those with the most selfishness." What is the worst economy or best economy and how did they get that way? You think that the U.S. has had a great economy.

    Economics is about running the household. That's the root concept. How did the U.S. gain so much material possession? Did any other people in the house (the Earth) suffer as a direct result? Is the environment suffering? Could things have been done much better? Those are the questions your system of thought doesn't even touch as if they don't exist. People all over the planet have suffered under the negative exploitation of the capitalist imperialists down through the history of the U.S.

    Capitalists went into Central America for example and set up plantations and dictators. They ended up making the lives of the indigenous peoples much more miserable. The U.S. military and self-styled intelligence community (CIA and others) trained the death squads in torture among other purely evil things. That military and intelligence community is paid for out of capitalism in the spirit of capitalism. If they were of the unselfish spirit, they would never do such things to other people. That's an inescapable fact. Nations are facing huge environmental problems due to the so-called economic progress brought to them by more unbridled capitalism. Farmers are committing suicide by the droves in India because of the ruinous one-crop, cash-crop, Bt economy they were tricked into by the wholly selfish, greedy, shortsighted, evil capitalist system you so love and defend. Many farmers have committed suicide right here in the U.S. due to the direct selfishness of those with robber baron mentalities who didn't give a damn about the lives of the people they trampled.

    The temptation offered up to the rest of the world by the American system of greed and shallow materialism is temptation to evil. It is temptation to put self first at the direct negative expense of exploited others who don't live under regimes that require occupational safety and health regulations or high environmental regulatory standards, etc.

    You see, regulations have forced cleaner air in the major cities. I know you're old enough to remember being able to slice the air pollution with a knife in major U.S. cities.

    Laissez faire capitalists were dead set against environmental regulations and laws that cleaned up much of that. They still are. The list of pollution problems is very long that have been greatly reduced by the direct opposite of laissez faire capitalism.

    I just want souls to want to do it all voluntarily out of the goodness in their hearts. You talk and write against that though. That's evil.

    Americans have had the life they have recently solely on account of living off borrowed time and money. It is catching up with them. Most of them are beginning to realize it. You're behind the curve on it — severely. Most Americans will change from what you're advocating that had been the direction that led to so much of the problems in the world.

    Also, the Dark Ages were not giving and sharing all with all, far from it. All was not dark about it either. We are in a dark age right now. Darkness is the absence of righteousness. We aren't living in righteous times but selfish times.

    As for Theocracy, they weren't truly under God during the Medieval period. They were under the spirit of Constantine I who twisted the message of Jesus Christ into something else entirely. Constantine's church was coercive and antichrist for that reason among others. Constantine was a militant monopolist just as capitalists are today.

    Look at the media consolidation. Look at Rupert Murdoch buying up so much of the media that pumps out so much capitalist nonsense that you've swallowed wholesale with little to no reflection.

    You also wrote, "The poor in the U.S. have the highest standard of living of any poor population in the history of the world." That's total hogwash. It's false propaganda you've been fed and swallowed. Get the facts right, Rob. The poorest of the poor are better off in many other nations of the world.

    You gave a list of material possessions and said the poor are overweight from abundance of food. You don't understand the homelessness in the U.S. You're living in a shell. I suggested you read the main post on this site.

    As for the poor being overweight due to abundance, you're showing your ignorance about the empty calories on the cheap shelves in American grocery stores and convenience stores that serve so many of the rural communities where many people can't afford to drive to the major stores in far away cities. The highly process so-called foods are the cheapest. They are also the most fattening. There is an abundance of cheap, unhealthy, fattening products the poor consume because they can not afford the healthy products. They die earlier than do the rich on account of it — on account of the terrible garbage being put out on the unregulated market — unregulated by the goodness in hearts that is oh so lacking in this nation ruled over by the plutocrats who have you completely duped and doing their bidding as one of their servile minions.

    Organic whole foods in general are far less fattening than the cheap, highly refined products that are a laundry list of chemicals. Read the labels Rob. The cheapest stuff isn't real food.

    If you call that abundance, then you better read The Bible on the subject. It isn't abundance. It's scarcity created by selfish capitalists. The obese poor are malnourished, and the capitalists feeding them the empty calories don't give a damn.

    The way you write about Enron and Hurricane Katrina is just cold, small, and hard-hearted. Where's your compassion, Rob? Enron was far from the only scandal, and taken together, they were far from minor. I dare say that others would have to hold back some of the folks who lost everything on account of the greedy leaders who stole them blind from attacking you physically.

    Just go get another job is your answer. Haven't you been paying attention to the unemployment figures? Are you also not aware of the people who give up looking who are dropped from the rolls when they should not be?

    Your answer isn't getting a different spirit so the evil doesn't happen in the first place. Do you think that smart? I know it isn't. Enron came up under capitalism. The more laissez faire it is, the more the Enrons show up.

    Capitalism is based upon selfishness, and selfishness leads to Hell.

    As for Jesus feeding people, if the whole world were to follow Jesus's teaching, there wouldn't be a hungry person on the planet. Your idea that capitalism is necessary for people to eat doesn't explain people voluntarily farming together and eating the food without capitalism involved. Long before there was capitalism, people were eating. Capitalism is not the source. It's a method, a trick, designed by the selfish hearted to get more for self and to lord it over others. They have fooled you into believing that you are beholden to them and their system for your provisioning and that there is no other option. That's exactly what they want you to believe.

    Where does the land come from? Where does the rain come from? Where does the sunshine come from? Where did the air come from? Where did the seeds come from? Did the capitalists invent them? Are we to thank the capitalists for what God created? You're dreaming, Rob.

    "New ideas and new products feed people and that is only possible in a capitalist system." How can you write such falsehood? Only capitalists have new ideas? That's a lie. Plenty of non-capitalists have new ideas. Where do you get these thoughts of yours?

    You've read hundreds of books on laissez faire capitalism you said. You've been indoctrinated, hypnotized in fact. You've undergone a brainwashing. You're repeating thoughts they've planted in your brain that have no basis in reality. Capitalism is not necessary for new ideas to feed people. Say that to yourself over and over again until the spell is broken. You've been lied to, Rob, and you've been spreading falsehood.

    Also, productivity is a semantical issue. The devil is productive under his definition of productive. It isn't productive in the end to grow tobacco for cigarettes. It isn't productive in the end to burn coal or oil without neutralizing the carbon released and without causing additional, new problems in the process. Real productivity is a net gain when everything has been taken into account, not just how many TV's or other material possessions you bring forth.

    This is the entire problem in communication. Words are being used without understanding their full import. Your "productive" (which isn't productivity in my book) is killing people. It is allowing some to live in unsustainable luxury, but they'll die, right? Let the next generations deal with the mess left behind. Technological advancements will somehow find the way, so why worry? Just go about not caring about the environment of others, and get what you can now. Thank God more people don't follow that and the people you read and follow. Thank God, literally, that more and more people are waking up from the lies of selfishness.

    The giving and sharing economy is not coerced socialism. Don't confuse the two.

    Giving and sharing economics has not failed all over the world. Wherever it has been applied in earnest, it has done better than capitalism. The only reason there hasn't been more of it is because capitalists send in their overt and covert operatives to undermine and destroy and because the capitalists are afraid to compete with unselfishness. The capitalists always lie about the giving and sharing economy and always push for cutting off the unselfish from the rest of the world. Without such evil capitalist acts, unselfishness always does better than selfishness. It always has.

    Giving and sharing doesn't lead to murder or concentration camps or genocide. Selfishness does. Jesus didn't do any of those things and doesn't advocate doing any of them. He's against them. Capitalists have done them all though.

    Capitalists put the American Indians on reservations they, the capitalists, thought was the worst land, even wasteland. As minerals have been discovered though, Indians are just pushed aside some more. How many millions of people do you think capitalists killed just because those they've murdered wanted more giving and sharing amongst themselves?

    Don't confuse Marx and Stalin with Christianity. They have nothing in Christ or he in them.

    Have you read about the Hutterites? Do a search on this site on "Hutterites." Visit their sites on the Internet. They aren't failing economically. If everyone were to give and share across the world as the Hutterites do within their communities, there would be no capitalism. There would also be no starving people anywhere.

    You still ignored much of what I wrote. You tactically avoided discussing the private corporate banks, Federal Reserve, the privatized currency, and the income taxes to pay interest to those currency monopolists. You avoided all the money laundering, drug trafficking, weapons black-market, and sex-slave trade, which are huge on the American and global scene. You avoided discussing the plutocracy. If you are unwilling to go into it all and to get at the root cause, you're wasting everyone's time.

    You didn't read, comprehend, or address the main post, "The Christian Commons Project™. It has a list of links to sites of people who are far from failing living the giving and sharing economy.

    You bought into the small, cold, hard-hearted spirit. That's bad. It will only take you down where you won't like it and where you will wish you never went. Don't rue the day. Turn, repent, atone, and overcome greed. Don't keep the devil whispering in your ear to be self-centered and not to worry about people suffering at the hands of the Enrons and due to evil intentions toward the people of New Orleans. Wake up and realize that the powers that be used Katrina to their private, special privilege and advantage.

    What have you read about the people still suffering on account of Katrina? You falsely imagine they have all been made whole again. They have not. Evil capitalists even brought workers over from India and other places to do work that those displaced by Katrina could have been employed doing to rebuild the coast. It was a plan to further erode the wage levels of even the poorest. Hundreds of those from India just marched to get attention to the terrible lies they were told to get them over here to work as slaves locked up each night and worse. "H-2 workers file suit, march to DC." WW4 Report. April 6, 2008.

    You're grossly ill-informed, Rob, and shouldn't be preaching until you know more about what's going on.

    With your attitude, who will be there to give you a hand when you're down and losing your grip? Or are you so stubbornly self-reliant and egotistical that you'll rather fall than take the hand to lift you up and out?

    Where's the Golden Rule in your philosophy? I don't see it anywhere in what you've written here. Where's your heart? You come across as dead of the spirit of mercy. If you are without sufficient compassion and continue advocating for people to be even more indifferent than they are, you'll have no one of compassion around when you need it most. The selfish spirits will eat you alive.

    What you're advocating is not the right path at all. People should not follow you. They should not follow those whom you are following. That way leads to Hell.

    As for a Theocracy, that's a semantical issue too. The world most certainly ought to be under God as Jesus defined God. There is no doubt about that at all. Living in accordance with the teachings and exemplary life of Jesus Christ will lead to the best that can be. Everything else veers off into ultimate error.

    Jesus is a totally unselfish soul. He puts others first always. He is a complete pacifist. He does no harm to anyone. He is assertive but harmless. Even when he purged the temple, he hurt no one. Everyone is better off that he did what he did, even you. He is against all harm, including sexual harm. He is as harmless as a dove and says that's how we all ought to be toward each other. He also says we all ought to give everything to each other and especially see after those with the least. You apparently hate all of that teaching. That's a huge mistake. It's the biggest error one can make.

    You need to do some soul searching, Rob. You need to think about all the harm you've done to others out of your confused selfishness. Don't pretend to yourself that you haven't sinned. You know what you've done that is shameful. You need to forgive others and to be sorry for what you've done. You need to stop promoting a way of thinking that you falsely imagine excuses you from on going sinful thoughts and deeds.

    I want you to turn. God wants you to turn. If you don't, it won't be because I didn't ask you or inform you. No one can force you. It's up to you to turn to God.

    God bless everyone in the universe with the truth that capitalism is not the source but the liability that it is. Selfishness is not the way. Real Christianity is the way — the only path to perfect righteousness.

    If it is your intention to cling to your false path rather then to repent, the blind lead the blind. In that case, there would be nothing more I could offer you, Rob. Any further conversation would just be talking passed each other and wouldn't be of benefit to the other visitors to this site. There isn't endless time to try to convince those who are determined to be hard-hearted, hardheaded, and stiff-necked rebelling against all that is right, good, and holy: The truth, the way, and the life.

    Tom Usher

  7. Rob Diego says:

    I'll let Dr, Peikoff express the proper answer to your statements:

    "...all the evils widely ascribed to capitalism flow not from capitalism, but from its opposite. This includes such evils as depression, child labor, racism, adulterated food and drugs, pollution, war, and pornography. A depression is a major, nationwide economic decline, which can be caused only by an agency with nationwide power: the government—in this instance by using its (statist) power to manipulate the money supply. Child labor was necessitated by the poverty inherited from feudal economies; it was wiped out in the nineteenth century not by laws or labor unions, but by capitalism's productivity. Racism is a primitive form of collectivism that has been entrenched worldwide throughout history—except under capitalism; witness the fact that the American system led to a civil war which eradicated slavery.

    Adulterated food and drugs are rare on a free market because a seller's reputation for quality is essential to his long-range profits and because fraud is a crime; but decline in quality (of everything) is normal in a mixed economy, as businessmen with political pull move in to fleece a public lulled into the delusion that, since inspectors from Washington are overseeing everything, individual judgment is unnecessary." and

    "War is a product of dictatorships, which survive by looting; "the major wars of history," Ayn Rand observes, "were started by the more controlled economies of the time against the freer ones." Pornography (along with drug addiction) spreads across a nation not because of liberty, but because of despair, the despair of semifree men in a collapsing world terrified by an unknowable future." and

    "Men who are immune to facts and logic have no alternative but to traffic in fantasy. Hence the senseless projections we hear today about life under pure capitalism" - The Philosophy of Ayn Rand.

    The fallacy of your basic approach is that you hold selfishness to be evil. A society of only sacrifice is a society in decline moving toward total collapse because it outlaws selfish actions. This has been demonstrated by history. Look at virtually any decaying third world country and you won't find capitalism there. You will find statism which is a society of total sacrifice of the individual; yes the worst most murderous societies in history are societies that outlawed selfishness. Look at the freest economies, and there have been many studies on this, and you will find more affluent countries with happier, more selfish people. With all due respect, the facts are there for you to see. You won't find them in the Bible...you have to use your own eyes and look at the real world and think with your own mind. As for myself, I have seen that of which I speak. I have worked in upper levels of management at several companies and traveled to Europe extensively as well as most major U.S. cities. Almost all the businessmen I dealt with were fine men of integrity and honesty. I have seen with my own eyes the drudgery and decay of one society that outlawed selfishness and that was East Germany. I have seen the difference between societies that outlaw selfishness and those that don't.

    This is my last communication. I know the nature of the kind of argument you will make. When you read it once, that is enough.

  8. Tom Usher Tom Usher says:

    Ah, Rob, for the last time you say,

    Well, until you turn, I'll say.

    As the old saying goes, you're barking up the wrong tree. Why make arguments about statism here? It is absolutely irrelevant to Christianity. What does Christianity have to do with manipulating the money supply?

    As for productivity wiping out child labor, that's just plain fabrication. Mundane laws and the enforcement of those laws ended most child labor in the U.S. Your Dr. Peikoff doesn't know enough history about child labor to fill a thimble if he thinks otherwise. Capitalists are now all over the world making money running businesses and contracting with businesses that exploit children in dire circumstances.

    China is a good example where children are warehoused often sleeping eight or more to each narrow room of crowded bunk beds and not allowed to leave the premises. They are kept locked in by capitalist management. They are forced to work under terrible conditions and they age prematurely from the extremely long hours. The rich are getting richer off this, and Americans have been buying the cheap goods in ignorance.

    The American Civil War wasn't even fought to end slavery. Lincoln was a federalist. He killed to force his vision of unity. He believed in the forced unity of the White people. He referred to the slaves as darkies and didn't go to war to free them. He wasn't an abolitionist and either were the vast majority of the richest capitalists in the nation at the time. Most of the people who were against slavery on moral grounds were Christians and often members of the peace churches, especially the Quakers.

    It wasn't called the slave trade for nothing. People were commodities to be commercially traded as with any other material good. Capitalists made a huge profit in the trading of slaves. Your suggestion that capitalism, per se, deserves the credit for the elimination of slavery is ridiculous. Capitalism is not some inherently moral philosophy or ideology.

    The idea that commercially legal drugs are somehow held to a higher standard on account of the invisible hand of the marketplace is totally wrong. Hundreds of thousands of people are harmed every year in the U.S. by drugs pushed by American drug companies that do everything in their power to cover up the negatives. Those companies cling to the bitter end before usually being forced to withdraw bad drugs from the marketplace. Morality isn't inherent in the system of selfishness that is the foundation of capitalism but rather its exact opposite.

    Have you never read about the Muckrakers? They are rightly credited with exposing the sins of the capitalists. Who do you think owned and ran the sweatshops? They were capitalists. Who owns and runs them now? You need to read more history and current alternative news.

    As for wars being foisted on the world by dictatorships, well then you're saying capitalist nations are dictatorships. Commodore Matthew C. Perry served Japan with an ultimatum in 1853 to open its market or face war with the US. Was Perry a socialist or a Christian? He was neither. He was the strong arm of the U.S. capitalist starting out on their worldwide campaign to build a capitalist, monopolist empire. Who do you think stole Texas and California and the rest of the Southwest from Mexico? Was it socialists. Hardly. It was capitalists. Who overthrew the constitutional monarchy of Hawaii? It was capitalists masquerading as Christian missionaries, giving Jesus and God a bad reputation neither deserves. Who trumped up the war against Spain to expand the U.S. market? It was the U.S. conducting a false-flag operation by blowing up its own battleship from the inside and then blaming the Spanish. They didn't do it to promote socialism.

    I'm not defending socialism, per se. I'm just saying that the idea that capitalists are somehow on a more moral path because of the system that is called capitalism is pure dung. Only ignoramuses, dupes, or willing devils hold otherwise. Who came up with the Open Door Policy for China? You will open your doors to us or we'll kill you. You will allow us to addict your population and others with opium or we'll kill you. We want to make a huge profit and you aren't going to stop us. That's capitalists talking to China, Rob.

    Shall I go on about Panama and all the history in between right up to Iraq where the oil capitalists headed by Dick Cheney are in the process of stealing control of the "prize" Cheney calls the Middle East's oil? He's a capitalist, big time isn't he. That's rhetorical, hence no question mark.

    Do you know how many times the U.S. invaded countries to force U.S. dominance over markets? Dozens of times is the answer. Not very moral is it.

    Consider what US Marine Major General Smedley Butler said as far back as 1935

    I spent thirty-three years and four months in active service in the country's most agile military force, the Marines. I served in all ranks from second Lieutenant to Major General. And during that period I spent most of my time being a high-class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism.

    Thus I helped make Mexico, and especially Tampico, safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenue in. I helped in the raping of half-a-dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers and Co. in 1909-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras "right" for American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested.

    It still goes on. It's what David Petraeus is doing now in Iraq. Nothings changed.

    So, according to your Dr. Peikoff, the U.S. is a dictatorship. It fits his criteria.

    “Men who are immune to facts and logic have no alternative but to traffic in fantasy. Hence the senseless projections we hear today about life under pure capitalism” - The Philosophy of Ayn Rand.

    Ayn Rand is the one who ignored the facts and logic. Anyone can see that by reading the real history of capitalism and by comparing her lack of vision with the real vision that is the vision of Jesus Christ, who was and is the best humanity has ever produced. If you want to follow Ayn Rand rather than Jesus, that's your choice. Frankly, it just is incomprehensible to me why though other than you're clinging to some evil that also has its clutches sunk deep into you. Would it be too painful to face up to whatever it is and to overcome it?

    "Look at virtually any decaying third world country and you won’t find capitalism there." Bull. You'll find capitalists exploiting the people after having bribed the ruling class and assassinating or overthrowing the choice of the people to lead them. You'll the capitalists behind the scenes being the dictators that they are, taking away the freedom of the people to choose.

    No unselfish society has ever been murderous. Murderers are selfish. Unselfish people don't commit murder.

    George W. Bush is always going around with a big grin. He's so happy. He must be right. Only that's a dumb conclusion. People in exploited countries are always going around smiling. It must be because they aren't capitalists. Only that's a dumb conclusion. They aren't happy because they've had their land stolen or they're getting sick and dying from imported toxic farming methods or their climate is being radically altered or for any other of the various reasons caused by the selfishness brought into their lives by the greedy capitalists.

    As I wrote in my last reply, you didn't read the main post on this site. You avoid discussing points I raised repeatedly. That's a typical method used by you libertarians and objectivists. In fact, there has yet to be one of you who hasn't done exactly that. You pick and choose the things you will or won't address because taken in its entirety, your system is exposed as a house of cards at best.

    You said there are no soup kitchens in America. You were flat wrong but didn't have the common decency to admit it. You can go through the comments back and forth and list the other points where you were shown to be wrong and that you didn't even admit to but rather ignored as if none of it matters so long as you just keep spewing the party line. Giving and sharing has always failed you said, but you ignored the Hutterites who have been a giving and sharing society since the Radical Reformation. That's hundreds of years, and there are tens of thousand of them living that way right now. Bless them. They are far from the only ones too. You just ignore all the homeless people. You ignore the on-going plight of the victims of Katrina. They just go on and on, your blatant falsehoods — propaganda spewed out by devouring spirits of darkness.

    You're on the dark side, Rob. You want license to evil and not real freedom that is being free from the very darkness you're spreading and magnifying. You're also on the losing side. Your capitalism is going to disappear. Satan loses. Mammon won't be required. Everyone will eat without being charged.

    Jesus was right and he still is and always will be. He's the greatest leader humanity has ever produced. His way is the best, and it isn't capitalism where people have sold out their souls for mammon in which they've placed all their faith.

    Your position is wrong and so is your path. Nothing any human being has ever put forth is superior to the Christianity taught and exemplified by Jesus Christ. You have rejected him. So be it. If you turn, good. If not, well you won't be there ruining the spirit for others. They won't have to listen to your twisting calling selfishness good. They won't have to be subjected to the evil way of this worldly world where the capitalist rule and worship mammon and Satan. they'll be free of all that, saved and delivered, separated from the goats so they may be surrounded by their own spiritual kind without harassment or pain and suffering inflicted upon them by selfish, greedy, violent, depraved spirits that always come flowing in together unless the door is finally shut never to be opened to them again.

    God is going to do that for the just. Jesus said so, and I believe him.

    Oh well, I told you the best you'll ever be told.

    God bless everyone with the truth.

    Tom Usher

  9. Tom Usher Tom Usher says:

    Obama Won, Greenspan Shrugged, but Capitalists Tool On

    Thursday 06 November 2008

    by: Steve Weissman, t r u t h o u t


    [In 2007], The New York Times referred to Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged" as "one of the most influential business books ever written," and portrayed Galt, the novel's iconic hero, as a role model for corporate CEOs in their dogged pursuit of self-interest.


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