Title: "Ode to a Vegetable."

Donkey Hayes' reply on Aug 10, 2008 at 4:02 PM

"I can see that we have already arrived at the place where you go no further. You refuse to allow that the Kingdom is the State. I don't often resort to mundane dictionaries. They are often exceedingly limiting. However, this instance lends itself to quoting the mundane dictionary, because perhaps you might budge from your stiff-necked position."

Why does the state exist? "To establish Justice and provide for the common Defense."
In the Kingdom of heaven there will not be sin, so no need for law enforcement, a judicial or penal system, nor will we be subject to invasion. The Kingdom of God is just that the Kingdom of God. It is not a state. As any other state is.

I'm not splitting any hairs with you brother. In fact I'm trying to reply only to what is relevant to our discussion. mainly is socialism biblical? And is capitalism evil.

"Surely from the time my mother conceived me was I sinful"

Point taken... Mises was in rebellion against God... I agree. What I am saying though is that while his heart was in rebellion there is nothing inconsistent with scripture and Austrian economics.. its simply a science. would you claim a scientist's works null and void simply on the grounds he was "against God" ?

Yeah.. Um.. Sure... the only problem is is that all men are greedy... keeping things in the common doesn't change that... or did you not notice that all the buffalo were killed off about 100 years ago. If the government had allowed the domesticize of the bison there would be far larger heards than there are today... and if anyone is really interested in saving the whales, I suggest allowing people to homestead them.. Tag them.. Whatever...

the point is that it is inherent in men to be greedy. Capitalism or not. Capitalism just allows that a man can only fulfill his needs/wants/desires by fulfilling the needs/wants/desires of others through trade. As for the sun being blocked out... I think that would be a violation of property rights... its certainly an interesting case...

Please understand I do not think a person has to earn their way into heaven. As for winning souls for Christ, that rests entirely on the Spirit of God. And he is no respecter of persons. Electing men upon no condition of their race, breeding occupation or so on...

Understand that Economics only deals with this world. Mises explains himself in "The Anti Capitalist Mentality" that He is "only concerned with the well-being of this world and that for issues concerning the life after one should look elsewhere"

Like I've said before. We shouldn't reject air planes, or the study of aeronautics simply on the fact that the Wright Brothers were not Christian... what kind of sense does that make?

My reply:

Hello Donkey,

Well, I see no point in continuing here beyond the following:

In the Kingdom of heaven there will not be sin, so no need for law enforcement, a judicial or penal system, nor will we be subject to invasion. The Kingdom of God is just that the Kingdom of God. It is not a state. As any other state is."

The fact that God's state is not like any other does not mean that his state isn't a state and to be the state in your heart if you are a Christian. We are to bring forth here and now. You stand in the way of that. You're wrong to do so.

You have cited the mundane to say I am wrong about the divine that is to come to this Earth. Justice and "the common defense" as used by the founders of the United States are not as used in anyway consistent with what Jesus teaches us to do (if we are open to learning).

"Surely from the time my mother conceived me was I sinful." Is that what you think about yourself? Where did Jesus say it? That's Psalm 51:5 for anyone who may stumble upon this page. Put it in context. David was begging God to forgive him for murder and adultery. Did you do those things? David was being as contrite as possible in his own eyes and rightly so. How could I have done such terrible wickedness unless I was evil to the core right from the start? That's the frame of mind. Do you think it proper to translate it onto all human kind as you have?

Jesus said no one is good but God. I agree. That doesn't mean everyone is conceived in sin. The flesh is less perfect, but things less than God don't all offend God. God is rather pleased when any of us make progress towards perfection. Jesus did say to the woman to go and sin no more. He wasn't telling her to go and never have sex again. He was referring exactly to her adultery. She was to keep to her lawful husband to avoid the sin of which Jesus spoke. If she were incapable of it (going and sinning no more), why would he say such misleading words? You're aiming too low. You're falling short by doing so.

I'm not saying here that being chaste is not preferable. I'm speaking here only about what Jesus labels sin, per se. The bonded, faithful, monogamous, heterosexually married are not inherently sinning by having sex. It depends upon what is in their hearts toward each other and all others. If they are unselfish, they aren't sinning.

This is a fallen condition, but when they asked him who sinned, the mother or father that the child was not whole, he said neither had sinned but that things were as they were so that God could show through him. Sinning and being fallen are not always the same. Jesus was here in this fallen place and he was one-hundred percent human being. That's not to say what else he was and is at the same time.

I've seen the argument about science before. I've seen nothing new here in this discussion. It's all old to me. You missed the point. I said very clearly that Jesus had already given us the perfect political-economy. Don't you believe it? He didn't make a mundane airplane. Your analogies leave much to be desired. They are not apt.

What good comes out from that which is anti-God? Your position states that the good, as Jesus means it when he says no one is good but God the Father in Heaven, comes out from those who are without God. I tell you that you aren't looking far enough. Jesus came out from God. We are to come out from God also. Blessed is he who comes in the name of God. Who then is a real blessing who doesn't (emphasis on "real")?

You say all men are greedy. Speak for yourself. I am not interested in excess at all. The buffalo were not nearly all killed off by the Indians who had been here for thousands of years. Are you saying they weren't or aren't men? They were and are human.

"the point is that it is inherent in men to be greedy. Capitalism or not." It is not inherent. It is learned. The tempters hand it down from the tempted and those who fall to it never to see their way clear to overcome. You are regurgitating false propaganda fed you by those who refused to overcome. They failed. It doesn't make it inherent in all people.

"Capitalism just allows that a man can only fulfill his needs/wants/desires by fulfilling the needs/wants/desires of others through trade." Who needs it within the family between members? Who is not to be treated as family under the teachings of Jesus? Does your father charge you to eat at his table? Do you charge your brother?

"As for the sun being blocked out... I think that would be a violation of property rights... its certainly an interesting case..." Since when have "property rights" mattered? They stole the Commons didn't they?

Economics is as I have stated it. I don't follow Mises. He didn't establish the meaning of the term. It was there long before he arrived on the scene. He didn't get it right. He was wrong. That's why he wasn't a Christian. He didn't understand how properly to run the house. You want to act as if you haven't learned here how Mises missed the boat. You're still trying to hold him up as some sort of light. He was not. He was in the dark. You said so yourself above. The well being of this world lies in following the prescriptions of Jesus, not Mises. You can't follow both. They go in different directions; yet, you cling to Mises coattails. You keep rationalizing (self-satisfying but incorrect). You're in denial, as they say.

"Like I've said before. We shouldn't reject air planes, or the study of aeronautics simply on the fact that the Wright Brothers were not Christian..." I dealt with this above.

I've heard it before. In addition, so far, the invention hasn't proved to be the right direction. Don't place your faith in human technology or money. So far, airplanes have added to noise and air and other pollution and facilitated much death and destruction. On balance, I wouldn't conclude that it has been a good or necessary move. That's not to say that there are not ways to fly in the air without doing those evils. That's the point. The spirit that brought forth the common airplane was not the unselfish but the selfish spirit. Just because libertarians have said it or written it doesn't make it Gospel. Just because the Wright-Brothers point has been trotted out repeatedly by libertarians doesn't make it good or valid.

Capitalism is based upon selfish competition. Jesus' doesn't teach that does he? Capitalism has proven a net loss. There is no gain with capitalism. The externalities of that system have been worse than the supposed benefits have been good. Don't you see that? Step back and look at the whole course of history.

Well, Jesus is a communist for anyone interested in the truth.

May God eventually bless you with the truth.

I do not know if I'll be back here to this group since it didn't bear fruit. I didn't find the peace of the LORD here. I leave and take my peace with me through no fault of my own.

Tom Usher


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    Education: Arizona State University, Bachelor of Science in Political Science. City University of Seattle, graduate studies in Public Administration.

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