PART 7: TO DEBATE TO GET AT AND TO SHOW TRUTH IS CHRISTIAN: SOME MORE OF WHY I'M NOT ROMAN CATHOLIC

Kevin, the Roman Catholic: Dec 27, 2008 @ 12:53:

are you aware L'Arche is a Catholic started organization Tom?

This but one example of what you are striving for with Commons ideology another would be,
http://www.devp.org/devpme/main-eng.html

CARITAS INTERNATIONALIS
http://www.caritas.org/

St. Vincent de Paul Society
http://www.svdpusa.org/

and the list goes on...

I really think you've not thought through your opinions on Catholic Charity and/or you claim of lack of.

Tom Dec 27, 2008 @ 21:25

Hi Kevin,

I thought through it all. I list Catholic communes. You're missing the whole point of the Christian Commons. The whole Church is to be one Commons. The pope ought to be living equally with all the commoners. He should get his hands literally dirty with earth working the fields and crops with others to raise food for all. I sure want to.

The RC's have been segregated by RC design though. The clerics and laity are not one. That's not how it is in my Church.

Blessings,

Tom

Kevin 2008/12/30 at 9:16am

Tom,

you present opinion/fiction not fact.

Let's stick to fact not fiction.

Peace of Christ

Tom 2008/12/30 at 11:07am

Hello Kevin,

You're not being helpful. You have your ego tied up in your Roman Catholicism. If your church were better, I'd have joined. It isn't better.

I have put forth a real liberal plan here, as Isaiah terms it. It fits with Jesus's words. Your church has had more than 1500 years and never said the whole church is to give and share all things in common. Your popes allowed some to do it but refused to allow all to do it. That was wrong among all the other wrong things your church and its popes did.

So, if you want to remain a Roman Catholic, go ahead. It's not the right choice, but you've been granted the free will to make it. I tried. You won't be able to say you didn't hear it.

Tom

Kevin 2008/12/30 at 1:07pm

Tom,

"Your popes allowed some to do it but refused to allow all to do it."

Your problem is not with papal authority it is with individuals discerning their vocation in life.  Your claims of pope(s) preventing or instructing against all of us following the will of God is in error.

I wonder if you are at all familar with Western mysticism and the development of monastic life by those such as St. Benedict,St. Dominic,St. Francis?  

Many of the Church orders are the fulfillment of what you are claiming as something original under the banner Christian Commons Project.
I salut you and say good for you Tom in following where Catholic Christians have already laid down the road.

Tom wrote,

"That was wrong among all the other wrong things your church and its popes did."

What was wrong Tom? you haven't actually written anything of papal wrong-doing. To further your own Christian faith you need to spend time in study to make sure your opinions and then accusations are based in truth.

Finally, please refer to me as a member of the Catholic Church in future, to use titles such as Roman Catholic and RCC is not altogether accurate yet not necessarily dishonest but to be clear, the Church(Catholic) is greater than the Western Latin Church which has adopted the derogatory title "Roman Catholic" first applied to it by the 16th century separatists you may call "reformers"

Peace of Christ

Tom 2008/12/30 at 10:07pm

Ha, Kevin Again,

Your problem is not with papal authority it is with individuals discerning their vocation in life. Your claims of pope(s) preventing or instructing against all of us following the will of God is in error.

I am absolutely not in error. In the whole of what was Christendom under them, not in the Eastern Orthodox areas, etc., of course, but definitely Western Europe, the Papacy decided who was and was not allowed to live communally. You are flat wrong. Check it out.

Study the history of Roman Catholic persecution of those with whom the Popes disagreed and over whom those Popes sought to lord it — (lordship over them).

I wonder if you are at all familar with Western mysticism and the development of monastic life by those such as St. Benedict,St. Dominic,St. Francis?

Do you even give me credit for having any brains? The post above says, "Order of Saint Benedict, Multiple locations." It's a hyper link. Do you really think that in making the most important case on the whole site that I would point people there without having even been there or considered the orders or their developments and current positions?

I realize that there has been a huge dumbing-down in recent decades, but try to lift the standard here please.

How many times have you visited this site and over what period of time? How many comments have you left while not having looked for the answers concerning about that which you have wondered? I don't mean this harshly, but if you're going to engage me in discussion on my level, please search on subjects on this site before just wondering aloud in your comments any longer. You are really passed the point were that approach is appropriate.

Yes, I'm familiar with the development of the orders you mentioned. I don't claim to be the most knowledgeable person concerning their histories. What I can say in all certainty is that I looked enough to find the reasons for which I rightfully rejected them for not being consistent with Christianity (that is always only what Jesus teaches as stated in the Gospels).

Look, Kevin, maybe this will help you finally. I didn't start with the Christian Commons and then work backwards. I looked for the answers, which lead me to understand what Jesus wants to see here, and I, of coursed, looked to see with whom I could linkup where it might already be in process. I did not reinvent the wheel.

Even the Apostles were not doing the Christian Commons in its next evolutionary stage that I've devised in the Holy Spirit. Of course, Jesus was always speaking of the Commons and especially in the highest and widest senses knowable. I did not devise solely for the flesh.

Many of the Church orders are the fulfillment of what you are claiming as something original under the banner Christian Commons Project.

This is just another way of saying what you've already said that I've already addressed. I already explained to you that you are missing the point. Look Kevin, there are military Catholic orders. That's allowed under, even commanded by, the Popes. It isn't allowed under Christ. Certain of the Roman Catholic orders were founded on corporal punishment. That too isn't allowed under Christ. I could go on.

Those orders are in the body called the Roman Catholic Church. They aren't in my Church. Your Church, your Pope, allows and orders garbage, corrupting policies and practices. Your whole tree isn't good. Your church (the whole of it) isn't through the strait gate and isn't on the narrow way. I'm not judging and condemning Benedict or you. I'm extending light to him and to you.

So, I've explained that Popes forbade the common people from living communally rather than under the violently coercive feudalism promoted and enforced by those Popes, and I've shown the clear difference between my vision and your Popes'. Furthermore, many of your RC orders are simply non-profit capitalist enterprises not dedicated to bringing forth to feed the poor. Which order is the complete fulfillment, and I'll ask you if the members can through out the Bishop without the Pope's okay.

The Christian Commons is grassroots Christianity. If I go astray, the members don't have to have the Pope's authorization to continue on without me. That's why I don't need your Pope's okay to continue on without him. Get it, grasp it, comprehend, .... anything here?

Aren't you aware that the Popes were/are feudal lords? Are you ignorant that Cardinals and Bishops were/are feudal lords and war lords (now still by proxy)? I don't believe you were not aware of this. I know you simply attempt to act as if these things are not facts. Your church is known by its fruit historically and right now. I don't like the taste or smell or look or feel or any of it. It doesn't bring forth in due season. It cumbereth the ground — Century after century of obfuscation and indirection. People should not be Roman Catholics. It isn't good enough.

Look Kevin, just because an RC here or there or a group of RC's is closer to the vision of the Christian Commons than is Exxon, doesn't make the Commons the official policy and practice of the Roman Catholic Church. It isn't the Roman Catholic Church. The RC church is not the Commons. Don't you understand that? It is not what the Jerusalem Apostles and Jesus Christ were living together. Your Popes taught, and still do, private property and private possession and allowed for excess and even lived in it and still do.

The Commons though is the Real Liberal Christian Church. If you can't appreciate the distinction between the RLCC and the RCC, if it's too subtle for your mind, what can I do about that other then to tell you to work on it?

I salut you and say good for you Tom in following where Catholic Christians have already laid down the road.

Kevin, I've used the RC orders as cases in point to show laissez-faire capitalists that they are flat wrong when they say that communism has never worked. This very post makes clear that I've pointed to Roman Catholics to that end. What are you thinking?

However, Kevin, any Roman Catholic who stands up to say that from now on, everything that is every other Roman Catholic's is now every Roman Catholic's will not be followed by the Pope. Are you able to follow this? Do you dispute it?

Put it to your church. Write a formal request for religious guidance on the question. Show us here your request and the answer. The answer will not be that the Roman Catholic Church holds with all things common for all of its membership, the whole body (whereas I do).

You are avoiding the difference between your church and mine. You are trying to spread a complete and operative falsehood here that my Church is unnecessary, because yours is already the Christian Commons. No one who reads this site and reads your church's position is going to conclude that the Roman Catholic Church is the Christian Commons. To put forth such an assertion as you have here is dimwitted, frankly.

Perhaps now you know why none of your clergy has come here and left comments consistent with what you've alleged. They know better. No doubt, many of them and especially those closer to the top would tell you to stop, because you're exposing the spiritual weakness in Roman Catholicism.

Of course, you were sent here by the Holy Spirit for that very reason.

"That was wrong among all the other wrong things your church and its popes did."

What was wrong Tom? you haven't actually written anything of papal wrong-doing. To further your own Christian faith you need to spend time in study to make sure your opinions and then accusations are based in truth.

Before you left this comment, I had already replied to other of your comments on other posts: SOME OF WHY I'M NOT ROMAN CATHOLIC OR PAULINE: PART 6: TO DEBATE TO GET AT AND TO SHOW TRUTH IS CHRISTIAN. Perhaps you didn't see that before posting your comment above. My reply addresses this.

Regardless, for one who tells me I need to study, it is incredible how little you know. I thought every school boy knows about the Catholic Inquisition? Not only that, but the whole Protestant Reformation began over the issue of deep corruption allowed of the Popes, particularly as pertains to the selling of indulgencies where the rich could simply engage in the most horrifically disgusting and depraved acts and simply pay off the Roman Catholic Popes with unlawful gain to obtain forgiveness. Are you really stating here that you were unaware of such heinous and misleading teachings and crimes of the Popes and their Cardinals and Bishops, etc.?

Finally, please refer to me as a member of the Catholic Church in future, to use titles such as Roman Catholic and RCC is not altogether accurate yet not necessarily dishonest but to be clear, the Church(Catholic) is greater than the Western Latin Church which has adopted the derogatory title "Roman Catholic" first applied to it by the 16th century separatists you may call "reformers"

No, I won't do this, because I don't want to mislead people into believing the falsehood that your brand is the one and true. It isn't. It's off.

Now really, Kevin, I can't just sit here answering the questions of someone who needs to go study more on these issues and to do some searching and reading in-depth on this site before asking more questions. You've reached that point. I'll be glad to continue a dialogue with anyone who doesn't think it a bother. If you've come here to defend Roman Catholicism by trying to put it on a level with the Christian Commons, you are engaged in utter futility. It can't be done. Your church would have to be made over from top to bottom. It wouldn't be the same church upon completion. Your church doesn't hold my wine. It isn't capable of doing that as configured.

I hope you're beginning to learn some things here. I'm not holding my breath though.

Bless All,

Tom

Tom 2009/01/03 at 1:43am

More in answer to the Roman Catholics:

The Roman Catholic Church (RCC) has no claim on the Commons: On originating it or proselytizing for it, per se. The RCC has no exclusive claim on Acts, far from it.

And all that believed were together, and had all things common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. (Acts 2:44-45 KJVR) ["men" is not in the original]

And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common. (Acts 4:32 KJVR)

The Roman Catholic Church has never taught this as being the Christian condition for all those who would call themselves Christian.

In truth, the RCC stands against the Commons and the Jerusalem, Luke-Acts Apostles in that the RCC is not, and has never been, categorically against capitalism, war, and sexual depravity in mind and deeds across-the-board for all its members (all so-called and self-styled Catholics).

The Roman Catholics (RC's) allow capitalists, warmongers, homosexuals, and others to enter their church to remain unchanged and not demarcated as heathens in the eyes of Jesus Christ. However, the Real Liberal Christian Church (RLCC) does not mislead, as the Roman Catholics do, or at all. The RLCC allows capitalists (those with faith in the unrighteous mammon), those who kill for money for the secular state, and homosexuals and others sexually harmful to inquire: Ask, seek, and knock; however, the RLCC calls none member but the repentant, committed, changing, and changed. These are hugely significant distinctions between the RLCC and the RCC.

The doctrines we have in common do not signify in the Highest Heaven. That which separates us signifies. We approach God to become one with God. We do not mislead any into falsely imagining that they may remain capitalists and militarists or homosexuals or anything else that is harmful and depraved and enter and remain in Heaven. We do differentiate between those who work for capitalists from those who are capitalists. We also differentiate between those who are entrepreneurs within the capitalist system who are though truly working to alter and abolish that system. Souls are trapped, but there is escape. We explain on this site about translating the unrighteous mammon into the Christian Commons where money is in the end not needed or wanted but is rather understood to be the unnecessary evil that it always has been. That is something we extend and require of every member of the Christian Church. The Roman Catholics do not.

The RLCC does forgive brothers and sisters 70 times 7 times, and more.

Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven. (Matthew 18:21-22 KJVR)

The RLCC does though practice the progressive, spiritual, non-corporal-punishment discipline laid down by Jesus for his Church.

Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. (Matthew 18:15-18 KJVR)

Therefore, we, the Real Liberal Christians (each word in that name meaning the other words; being synonyms) completely bind capitalism, greed, selfishness, harmfulness, punishment, torture, militarism, violence, coercion, and all forms of sexual depravity on the Earth. We shall bring forth the New Heaven and New Earth conflated as intended by the Christ-mind within us.

The RCC, however, by means of their confessionals and contrary to Jesus's clear and plain and important teachings, have officially proscribe repetitive prayers and other so-called forms of penance and allow those they call members to continue on in the fashion of capitalists and military killers, etc. without ever facing being designated by the whole body as heathens and not of or in the body the Church. This process has not been conducive to bringing forth the Commons but rather a hindrance.

But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. (Matthew 6:7 KJVR)

There is no way around this, try, as the Roman Catholics will. They have modified their doctrines, but why were they ever out of sync with Jesus's very words (always written in what they have held all along to be canon that is law) if the Roman Catholics have truly had Apostolic Succession? The RLCC points out that that succession broke long ago and the steps that the Roman Catholics have taken have not reestablished the full continuity. To establish continuity would require starting over, a new, with a new wineskin to hold the new wine offered by Jesus Christ (the Real Liberal Christian Church).

For a more in-depth look at the distinctions and the obfuscations of the Roman Catholic Church concerning these matters, see the comment thread and post series beginning here:  "PART 1: TO DEBATE TO GET AT AND TO SHOW TRUTH IS CHRISTIAN."

Some important distinctions: Roman Catholic monasticism has been for celibates only. Married couples and families with children must remain lay organizations. In the RLCC, there is no such distinction made. The whole of society is to be the Commons: One soul; all Christian; the Priesthood of All Believers; no intermediaries between the people and their God and Christ.

At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you: For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God. (John 16:26-27 KJVR)

There stand no Roman Catholic priests between my God and me. Neither should any stand between my God and you. The Roman Catholics will protest that their doctrine is not such; but, I tell you that I had to remove their doctrines to see God.

Some Roman Catholics will hold that their priests are not held out to be intermediaries, but that is folly on its face, as they ascribe to their pope the power over the Earth &mdash dominion over the whole worldly and spiritual thing, including over me, which I reject, as they do not speak God's word consistently as I know it and as you will know it too if you read all this with an honest and soft heart required of you by Jesus.

As with the Roman Catholics, the Real Liberal Christian Church does not hold with the separation of Church and state. The difference between the RLCC and RCC though lies in coercion. The RCC always used violent coercion; hence, it was never Christian. It was always apostate. This is true by definition. The RLCC (the Church) will takeover the world, but it will do it solely by means of each and every heart remaining completely and with great personal and collective desire and not under any duress or any other means brought by any calling itself Church, voluntarily repenting, committing, and atoning during and thereafter to have the true law written more and more in them through and through: One God. The real Church is the kingdom.

Now, Kevin, who has come here in the name of the Roman Catholic religion and so-called Papal authority, has challenged me to show were the official RCC has taught, and I say demonstrated, evil — where it has forbidden communal living even to the point of burning people to death.

Whether or not one agrees with all of the doctrines of those burned to death and otherwise tortured, butchered, and murdered, the Roman Catholics had no right under God to do it. They took authority not from God but from the one above who moves souls to sin.

Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin. (John 19:11 KJVR)

Who falls from Heaven? We are bringing him down now to go into the Lake of Fire.

And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Revelation 19:20;20:10;20:14-15 KJVR)

The issue here is that the Roman Catholic Church conflated the Church with the temporal, worldly, violently coercive state, and that is abominable. They did this with extreme officialese. Only the woefully ignorant or deceptive or both will contend otherwise.

Now, what must be understood here is that there was no separation of church and state in the eyes of the Roman Catholics; therefore, all people, no matter their individual views, were to be done with as the church/popes deemed. All people not clergy were lay members of the church, like it or not, in the eyes of the church, since that church claimed dominion over all the earth by force of arms. Therefore, anyone burned at the stake was burned as either a member of the clergy or a layperson. I won't go into the various distinctions concerning friars and nuns, etc., here. It isn't necessary for the purposes of this point. I'm simply differentiating between the common civil citizens and all others. This distinction though is actually impossible with Roman Catholicism, as all are under and within the church or must die (have their lives taken from them where Roman Catholics have the hand that they secretly covet to gain again).

This is no mere word game here. You either bow to the pope or you're put to death.

Now, the Catholic Encyclopedia states that "the suppression, at least in theory, of the right to punish, undermined the basis of the Christian State."

What is meant here is that according to the so-called Catholics, the right of those said Catholics to kill those whom do not agree with the official dogma of that church undermines the Christian State. It does not. That encyclopedia lies.

For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village. (Luke 9:56 KJVR)

Now, Roman Catholic apologists will say that their church doesn't hold with such things anymore. So I ask, when did what was right become wrong? When did their popes go from being infallible in matters of faith to wrong? Are you seeing the wholly illogical (both mundane and spiritual) position here for the Roman Catholics. However, they can point to no such occurrences concerning the words and deeds of Jesus. Consequently, they were and still are astray. It's inherent to their whole system.

We are to be Christlike, even Christ. Killing people to save is incorrect, period. It was said to be wrong to kill, to take men's lives, by the mouth of Christ as recorded in the Gospels the Roman Catholics claim in their utterly hypocritical teachings. The Roman Catholics have been teaching lies all along. They don't know Christ.

Upper Italy was, after Southern France, the principal seat of the heresy. Between 1030-1040 an important Catharist community was discovered at the castle of Monteforte near Asti in Piedmont. Some of the members were seized by the Bishop of Asti and a number of noblemen of the neighbourhood, and, on their refusal to retract, were burned. Others, by order of the Archbishop of Milan, Eriberto, were brought to his archiepiscopal city, where he hoped to convert them. They answered his fruitless efforts by attempts to make proselytes ; whereupon the civil magistrates gave them the choice between the Cross and the stake. For the most part, they preferred death to conversion. — Catholic Encyclopedia

Cathars (Cathari) are in the eye of the beholder. Furthermore, choosing the cross certainly isn't choosing to knuckle under to any pope.

I remember being told a story about an American Indian chief, possibly an Aztec King who upon being given the same choice posed the following question (I paraphrase): So, let me get this straight, if I agree to convert to your religion, I will go to your heaven where I will be with your kind forever? Whereupon, the "Catholics" told him, "Yes." He said, light the fire.

As the one the Hindi called the enlightened (the Mahatma), Ghandi reportedly said, "I like your Jesus, but I don't like your Christians."

Even John Lennon said that Jesus was all right but his disciples weren't.

You see, some people, by their (Roman Catholics and others) distorted words and deeds, give Christianity a bad name.

Read about the Albigensian Crusade, which is now very public knowledge. It wasn't when I first read and heard about it.

[T]he Pope ordered the legates to preach a crusade against the Cathars. Having failed in his effort to peacefully demonstrate the errors of Catharism, the Pope then called a formal crusade, appointing a series of leaders to head the assault. There followed 20 years of war against the Cathars and their allies in the Languedoc: the Albigensian Crusade.

If you think it was Christian what the so-called Catholics by the direct order of the pope did to those people, you haven't the foggiest notion what Christianity was or is or will be. The pope's call was nothing better than an Islamic fatwah.

Here's what Jesus wouldn't have done and didn't do to the Cathars: Kill them; take their lives. That is always left to God where Satan is unbounded. Bind Satan within, and such things won't happen. Bind Satan within, and no evil will happen. Jesus would have left them to follow each other into the ditch if the Cathars were wrong. Some Cathars' teachings are not disproved by the words of Jesus though as understood in the mundane or on the spiritual level of the self-styled Catholics themselves if they can rise to grasp even that low-lying fruit.

Those who preach that war and physical violence and punishment are authorized by Christ follow Satan as their god, even if they don't know it. The Roman Catholics are the heretics. Their actions do constitute a Great Apostasy, even though in saying that, I do not say that I am a Protestant in the sense commonly understood today by that term Protestant. I certainly do though protest against apostasy.

The "Catholics" like to claim how they are making incremental changes to bring themselves in line with true Christian teaching. Hence they don't burn people at the stake anymore (for a while at least). However, there has always only been the one right teaching that is the words and deeds of Jesus Christ from which the Roman Catholic pope officially diverged time and again.

Therefore, I do not buy nor will I sell any such thing as an unbroken apostolic succession of the Roman Catholic popes who don't have it right yet and never will for the simple reason that that church's first principles are in error and nothing good can be built upon them that will last.

Finally as I've written elsewhere on this site, let me point out that if you think that Christ didn't and doesn't become exasperated, you don't know him as well as I do. I don't have endless patients with people who care more about being sappy, false-heartedly friendly than they care about people being bombed. They aren't my true friends. I'm picky that way. So is Jesus. Ask him. No matter how unfriendly the "friendly" ones are though, I won't resort to bombing them or doing any other violent or coercive things to take their fleshly lives. Neither will Jesus. They'll do that to each other though out of the real hardness in their hearts that brings forth such abominations. They get what they do. That's God's standard while God isn't the author of such sins. Figure it out. I have. It's doable.

Blessings,

Tom Usher

(Source: Comments on "Christian Commons Project.")

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  • Tom Usher

    About Tom Usher

    Employment: 2008 - present, website developer and writer. 2015 - present, insurance broker. Education: Arizona State University, Bachelor of Science in Political Science. City University of Seattle, graduate studies in Public Administration. Volunteerism: 2007 - present, president of the Real Liberal Christian Church and Christian Commons Project.
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