PART 9: TO DEBATE TO GET AT AND TO SHOW TRUTH IS CHRISTIAN: SOME MORE OF WHY I'M NOT A PAULINE SO-CALLED CHRISTIAN: CAPITAL PUNISHMENT

I ran into a post by a woman professing Christianity, sincerely believing herself to be a true follower of Jesus, who took exception to the "liberal" Christian view opposing the worldly state inflicting capital punishment. The comment section contained two comments. The first was by a "conservative" so-called Christian citing Paul's letter to the Romans to justify Christians supporting the death penalty. The second comment cited Jesus in refutation. I added the following comment. What do you think?

Hello One and All,

Jesus rebuked the powers that be. Paul did not. Jesus is right. Paul was not.

Jesus said that only he who is without sin may rightfully take a life. However, taking that life then renders that one a sinner. It is Satan who devours souls. That is Jesus's teaching.

Jesus included the Sanhedrin and the whole Roman Empire in that. None may take a life, because none is without sin, which is falling short of the utter perfection of God. The current mundane or secular states are no different. They are not authorized by Jesus to take any lives.

If you are going to live by the Old Testament hypocrisy, why read the New Testament?

Never use Paul to contradict Jesus. Christians follow Christ without Paul in between them. Paulines follow Paul even where Paul is out of step with Jesus Christ.

God bless everyone with the real: The truth.

Tom Usher

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  • Tom Usher

    About Tom Usher

    Employment: 2008 - present, website developer and writer. 2015 - present, insurance broker. Education: Arizona State University, Bachelor of Science in Political Science. City University of Seattle, graduate studies in Public Administration. Volunteerism: 2007 - present, president of the Real Liberal Christian Church and Christian Commons Project.
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    • Let me toss out a wrench in the works....

      Jesus did not condemn soldiers, and obviously they were in the death penalty business, whether it be war crimes, or other issues where they would kill people. It one looks at Thomas Aquinas Just War Doctrine, there may also be some latitude for the death penalty.

      Personally, I think God condemns it, but there are other things to look at which might lead one to a different conclusion. The dangerous part is when one starts trying to justify political views with matters of faith. Rarely are such things simple, much less absolute.

      • Hello Ron Amundson,

        Okay Ron, I'm being moved by the Holy Spirit to try a different approach right now. Let's see whether or not you had a wrench to throw and what it is you tried to stop from functioning.

        Firstly, does Jesus condemn anyone? No, he doesn't. You remember that, don't you? I'm assuming you do now that I said it and you've read it here. So, that wrench wasn't there.

        Secondly, there are, as you know or should know, implications regarding everything Jesus says and does. He is not inconsistent. He detests hypocrisy. When he says to turn the other cheek, put up the sword, and to not resist evil, etc., he means soldiers and others are to convert and then refuse to take lives no matter who tries to order them to kill. Which of the disciples of Jesus took lives? None did.

        Barack Obama, for instance, is not authorized by God and Jesus to order Obama's fellow servants to go beat or kill others. Jesus taught the Golden Rule. Obama is about to increase the death and destruction in Afghanistan and Pakistan if he makes the dreadful mistake of sticking with his campaign rhetoric about it.

        Obama didn't speak out against the false-Zionists killing Gazans. How many Christian Palestinians did those false-Zionists just murder? Murdering Christians or Muslims or Buddhists, etc., is all wrong. Please don't attempt to justify the false-Zionists if you are tempted to do so. They stole the land. That's a fact. It wasn't Britain's or America's or the United Nation's to give to them. Regardless, those false-Zionists ignore all the secular international laws they want to with impunity solely on account of U.S. military-imperial hegemony (which won't last). To be clear, neither is Hamas justified under Christianity. It does though have the lesser sin in the matter.

        So, Obama has not been put in place by God to mete out those things Paul claimed in Romans. He was put there by Satan.

        Paul:

        Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. (Romans 13:1-4 KJVR)

        Did Hitler qualify? When Hitler ordered everyone to turn over others to be exterminated, were those who refused the orders of men therefore resisting the ordinance of God? Peter and John resisted the orders of the Sanhedrin. Were they right or wrong to do so? The Sanhedrin told them not to preach in Jesus's name. They didn't though follow that order. They knowingly violated the express will of the Sanhedrin.

        Who was Franklin Roosevelt then if Hitler was ordained of God?

        Look, the only reason Jesus was spiked to the cross was because humanity was following wrong rulership. Caesar was wrong. The high priest, Caiaphas, of the Sanhedrin was wrong. Pharaoh was wrong regarding enslaving the Israelites.

        Paul didn't differentiate between God and Satan. Jesus though does, always. Paul was at best confused about worldly and fleshly might making right. The Beast just takes.

        Who do you think put the worldly powers in place? Remember when Jesus was tempted? It was Satan who offered him the whole world if Jesus would worship Satan and not God. That would have required Jesus to be a predator. Those who have the whole world now did not do what Jesus did then. They are kneeling before Satan and not God.

        Paul's writings only served to confuse and mislead on this. It's why the Paulines have never brought forth and why the kingdom will be taken away from them and be given to them whom will bring forth: Christian Commons.

        If this bothers you, if you are offended by it, then the truth offends you. You'll have to rethink everything.

        None of this is complicated at all. Why make out that it's complicated other than to obfuscate and mislead?

        The converted soldiers and other former minions of Satan are, in the name of Jesus Christ, to refuse any further service to Satan; and if the worldly state condemns them and even puts them to death for whatever it terms (cowardice or some other ridiculous notion), then those former violent soldiers will die true Christian martyrs — Jesus's real spiritual brothers whom I love and you should also. If you disagree, you need to go away and re-read every last word of Jesus in full context.

        As for Aquinas, he was just wrong — rationalizing for the Roman Catholics. Jesus does not teach Aquinas's just-war theory. There are no two ways about it.

        People, of course, are lead to fall short ("a different conclusion" as you termed it).

        No doubt, you are new here (this website). This is a singularly unique site. Here, politics and faith are fully conflated. I don't define real politics as being something other than God's reign. The only right rule is God's rule. Everything else is false. That's absolute. It's as clear as clear can be.

        I can, and do, speak the mundane language so I may lead people to the language of the revelation.

        As a Christian, the task is to be the kingdom come. That disturbs those who are afraid to let go of iniquity (think they can't do it; lack the faith; want to remain greedy, violent, sexually depraved, or some other form of selfishness that is harmful to souls).

        I see that you used "lutheranforums.com/blog/" as the URL to your website. It would be rather misleading, to say the least, for you to not be a Lutheran. I view you as Lutheran. I think of you as Lutheran. I'm not a Lutheran. I'm not a Protestant. I'm not a Roman Catholic or a member of any of the Orthodox denominations; although I do protest; believe in the one, universal Church; and am orthodox, since I believe Jesus's words and deeds.

        As for what you attempted to stop, even though you wrote that you personally think God condemns it, is peace on Earth. Ron, you shouldn't be going about attempting to stop that which you personally believe God wants. There is such a thing as being the devil's advocate to test something. Take care not to be the devil's advocate testing the sons of God attempting to cause them to fall. Take care to lift souls up by magnifying the light of truth, both relative and absolute.

        Peace to you, Ron

        Tom

    • Hi Tom,
      I use to be a "pro" capital punishment type. (I use to be a lot of ugly things).

      Something for the pro capital punishment people to think about. Would you put someone to death knowing that the next day they may have been saved? It is not my place to keep someone out of heaven or send them to hell.

      God Bless Tom!

      • Hello Scott,

        I remember first being shocked that anyone would kill anyone. Then little by little, the system propagandized me. In the 1950's, I was conditioned by hundreds of hours of WWII movies and gangster movies and such. The fact is, I was lead astray by it all. It all served to harden the heart. It, and many other things, tore me in pieces.

        Finally, like you, after reading Jesus with an eye to really following wherever it would lead to see if it held the answers, I discovered that I had become what I had once abhorred. I had become a danger to the tiny child in me whom I then saw in everyone else.

        Since then, I've been in the process of becoming myself. In finding me, I am finding God and vice versa. I am finding you and being found by you. It is what Jesus means by being one. It is real love.

        Why this is esoteric to others is something they'll have to explain.

        Bless you, brother. You are a Godsend. You've chosen righteousness. Stay with it. Don't let the naysayers turn you a round.

        "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." (Matthew 18:20 KJVR)

        That means us, brother! Jesus is with us.

        Tom Usher