Capitalist hogwash: A lack of capitalist self-centeredness "cause the pilgrims' shortages."

I first posted this as a short post pointing only to a comment thread on my Facebook Wall

http://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=10150385170123741&id=557363740

Click on the number of comments. It was 15 when I posted this, but there may be more by the time you get to it.

That's not my only thread even on that one post over there on that hyper-capitalist site.

which duplicates the ones on the linked site:
The Pilgrims' Real Thanksgiving Lesson
November 25, 2004
Benjamin Powell
Charlotte Observer, The San Diego Union-Tribune.

Note the date: November 25, 2004. It's propaganda that the self-styled libertarians, laissez-faire capitalist, anarcho-capitalists, and various other flavors of capitalism like to repeat and repeat. The stream of propaganda often comes with other false claims such as that socialism has never worked, blah, blah, blah.

Of course, when they say "socialism" they define it as only those situations where whatever some were calling socialism was the following:

1) militarily crushed or

2) sanctioned to death or

3) imploded due to truly anti-democratic aspects within or

4) all of the above.

They, of course, leave out of the definition all those incidences where common ownership worked and still works and has even flourished even often in the face of great hostility by the "capitalists."

Think of every group that holds common property. Even your local condominium association is an aspect of socialism. Every public road is an aspect of socialism. The capitalists want to privately profit from your use of public roads by taking them away from the collective owners (the citizens) and forcing them to pay those privateers to use the roads. Yet, capitalists will say, "What could be more fair?"

There are thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, I dare say even millions and more examples in the world where common property worked, is working, and will continue working while capitalism dies.

Now, there is socialism and then there is socialism. I am a Christian. As such, I do not hold with violence. Violence is to be overcome by the spirit of peace that is the real truth. Wherever there is violence between human beings, there you find a failure of one or both parties to know and to live in accordance with the truth. The answer is not to kill those who do not know, as doing so places the killer/executioner in the position of having fallen to the level of what he or she knows ought not to be done. Jesus died in the flesh but lives. The same holds for every Christian who does not fight but even still dies in the flesh. Every such Christian has the true faith that he or she will yet live according to Jesus's words and example. This is what the first Christians taught their children, who were served to the lions with them and went singing to the great consternation of the violent, depraved ones.

The first Christians, those closest to Jesus personally in the flesh who got to hear him say things that are not restated in the Gospels but that were certainly all consistent with what is there, did not engage in violence. It is our understanding that all of the first Apostles except for John died as non-violent martyrs. They never took up the sword after Peter was told by Jesus to put it away is our understanding.

Now, as for the linked article from November 25, 2004, there is another one on that same site that I discovered today. It is dated November 25, 2008. Apparently also, the article has been reproduced on a number of other sites over the years. Therefore, the basic false premises of that article must be, and are here being, exposed.

The premises are false. The logic is flawed. Those who hear me on it but continue insisting otherwise are liars in their hearts. They are refusing to overcome their self-centeredness. They are arguing to hold onto their supposed personal property that if they were true Christians, they would rather say as the first Christians said, it is all of ours to use as each of us has true need.

This is not a call for exploiters and false-users. Those who are not of the body of Christ will not be living amongst the true Christians for long. They will be found out for the heathens they are and find themselves locked out of Heaven. It has to be that way, else Heaven would be no better than Hell.

No Christian is asking for souls to be tortured, but souls are tortured by their own wickedness. The burning punishment hopefully will end up being seen by them for what it is: their own failure to correct. It can be done by those who turn and repent and persevere -- Calvinists (usually hyper-capitalists) notwithstanding.

As for the duplicate linked article from November 25, 2008 mentioned above, the only reason I came across it was because Facebook-comments on the 2004 article were loading so slowly and strangely that I wondered if some game was afoot. I went to the author's page to see if the article were still listed. That's when I saw that it is on the site twice.

Because Facebook was loading so poorly, I thought to reproduce the comments here. There are no possible copyright issues that I can determine because all of the comments are reproduced automatically on my Facebook Wall. People comment back and forth with me on my public Facebook Wall don't have copyright protection for their comments. They can be duplicated all over the place by Facebook. There is no expectation of privacy above the user's privacy settings. There is no expectation that the comments won't be duplicated by Facebook or others elsewhere than where the commentators posted the comment. I for instance, did not know where my posting on the linked article would appear and especially that the whole thread(s) would be repeated on my Facebook Wall. I do not expect that others may not accurately quote me (with attribution and hopefully in context) elsewhere.

So, I've decided to reproduce the thread(s) here:
[This process helped me discover comments concerning which Facebook's notification process had failed to notify me too.

I've sorted the comments in chronological order. The dates and hours will be static on this post. Don't let that throw you. I'll continue updating in chronological order.]

Daniel Hoppe · Aubrey, Texas
Great read. I have heard that his inspiration came from the Bible perhaps Galatians 6:7.
" Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap."

Which also means your work is yours a capitalist system from scripture for man. Socialism/communism by contrast would be the deciver which says others work is yours too. Just as the young men though they were entitled to covet the older mens wifes and fruits of thier labors.
Reply · 5 · Like · Follow Post · November 1 at 2:39pm

Tom Usher · Works at Christian Commons Project
"I sent you to reap that whereon ye bestowed no labour: other men laboured, and ye are entered into their labours." (John 4:38)

What do you think that means regarding your claimed interpretation: "...means your work is yours a capitalist system from scripture for man"?

You take verses out of context to support your selfishness, your unwillingness to be as the Apostles were and as Jesus was with them. Repent of it if you are able.
Reply · Like · Wednesday at 5:11pm

Dave Skofstad · Works at Skofstad Electrical Contractor
Tom Usher My brother. I think you need to work on this anger problem.
Reply · Like · Yesterday at 4:54am

Daniel Anderson · Plainfield, Connecticut
Tom Usher, even Paul the Apostle, who gave his life to evangelize the world, worked for a living, even though he had every right to expect to be supported because of his evangelistic work. Until the kingdom of this world becomes the kingdom of our God and of His Chist, we have the responsibility to work for our food, as other scriptures also state. I don't have chapter & verse off the top of my head, but a quick online reference will find it in a matter of minutes. Our responsibility is to trust in our Lord, not in man nor his government. NOWHERE in scripture is there ANY instructions to set up manmade government programs to forcibly take from those who produce and give to those in need. It IS TRUE RELIGION (according to James) to help the poor, widows, and fatherless OF OUR OWN FREE WILL. Statistically, CHRISTIAN CONSERVATIVES ARE THE MOST GENEROUS PEOPLE ON EARTH. LIBERALS DO NOT GIVE OF THEIR OWN FREE WILL. They expect duh guvurmunt to tax duh rich (which is NEVER THEM, no matter how rich they are!) to give to duh poor, with nothing at all given voluntarily on their part.
Reply · 3 · Like · Yesterday at 7:15am

Daniel Hoppe · Aubrey, Texas
Tom Usher

First : John 4:34 , Jesus is talking about his food which is to finish Gods work. In this case God was the one who sowed, as he is the creator of all life and the Universe, the reaping is the souls. So it is impossible for man to not reap what God sowed, God is all giving, God is perfect. We however are not God, we are not all giving, we are not perfect, so this obviously does not apply to reaping what others sow, other than reaping what God sows. Please explain how you can take from another that which you did not work for without Covet? You may want others to be giving, but you can't command it. Not even God commanded Giving, for it would no longer be giving. God did not tell the poor to seek out the rich for he will care for you. He told the rich to be giving, so that their hearts do not harden. Yet we tell the poor to seek out the rich to be cared for and guess what, now the poor's hearts are hardened. God says if man were truly giving there would be no poverty, which means that even the impoverished need to be giving, laziness and unwillingness to work, is not giving, entitlement is not giving, sleeping around having children without fathers or no means to provide is not giving. One needs to look at the whole meaning, not just one side.

Second: the apostles only pooled their resources for a short time. I suggest you look at the outcome. The bible tells man what happens when we go down the road of socialism/communism.

Acts 5 Ananias kept a part of the money they received from a piece of property. He lied and God took his Ghost. The same fate for his wife. Until you get to Acts 5 : 13 and of the rest no one was daring to join himself to them, but the people were magnifying them,

So the apostles by a choice of free will came together and pooled their resources for a specific goal and for a short period of time, even then it failed for sin entered into the equation. The sin was to lie, be it greed , be it covet, be it pride matters not, it is sin and the results of sin and this system was death. No one else dared join themselves. But they did magnify, meaning giving and offerings. Now you can deny this, but history bears this interpretation to be accurate, since 1900 the attempts at communism/socialism have butchered 200 million people trying to make it work. For some reason they think man is without sin and can achieve it. Acts 5 says death is the result if sin enters the equation, Genesis says man is born of sin, thus its not possible to take sin out of the equation. Acts 5 says the door is shut for man.
Reply · Like · 18 hours ago

Daniel Hoppe · Aubrey, Texas
Tom Usher The verse you are perverting is stating Gods position, for he created the Universe, we did not work for it yet we will reap of it. That verse applies to God. To try and put yourself or other men in place of God, is wrong. You are attempting take Gods position and apply it to mans position, which is why you are wrong. Sorry they are not interchangable.
Reply · Like · 17 hours ago

Tom Usher · Works at Christian Commons Project
Daniel Anderson

Daniel, you write at me as if I am someone else. I am not talking about people not working. I'm talking about Christians working together to do what Jesus said to do. Okay?

I am not talking about secular socialism. I'm not talking about coercion. I'm talking about volunteering as Christians to have an in-gathering by the Holy Spirit of Truth telling us to finally do what Jesus said, which has not been done but we are supposed to do in the here and now or else.

Possibly, with some true back and forth, we could arrive at an understanding concerning the term "conservative" Christian.

I'm probably the least secular person here. I'm not registered to vote in any secular election. I don't vote for who's going to head the secular government of Satan and who will be the "modern-day" Caesar.

My, my, it's hard to be understood when you're being plain and clear as can be. Isn't it?
Reply · Like · 12 hours ago

Daniel Anderson · Plainfield, Connecticut
Tom Usher, in my other post I stated that the actual problem in Plymouth in the 1620s was the British East India Company (BEIC from now on in this post) taking all of what the pilgrims produced and rationing it back to them as it saw fit, regardless of how much or how little each person or family produced. Since the BEIC was a secular, for-profit company, it was more interested in making a profit and collecting a debt than feeding its debtors. This was not an apostle-led church community by any stretch! Even if all the pilgrims were Christians, as demoralizing as the economic structure was, human nature is still present and many saw no point in working hard to produce what they could not keep just to barely survive on the rations allowed by the BEIC. Flawed, unChristlike thinking perhaps, but imagine being hungry all the time while you and your family struggle to produce as plentiful a crop as you can in your fields, that you will never be able to eat! Put yourself in the pilgrms' shoes (if they still had any!), then judge them on their unchristian behavior!
Reply · Like · 3 hours ago

Tom Usher · Works at Christian Commons Project
Daniel Hoppe

Poor Daniel Hoppe,

"I sent you to reap that whereon ye bestowed no labour: other men laboured, and ye are entered into their labours." (John 4:38)

Your reading comprehension is low, or you are deliberately twisting. Do you see the word "men" there? I do. Jesus is teaching there the exact opposite of what you are trying and failing to get others to believe. It's obvious that you and the others here are insisting that Jesus was speaking only figuratively, only of spiritual food. It's nonsense. I agree with James:

"If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?" (James 2:15-16)

It is done in the flesh and the spirit at the same time and in the same place and for the same reasons. You are making lame excuses. Jesus and James hear you and me and are not in agreement with you on this matter.

The prophets worked. They labored. So did Jesus. So do I. People build upon the labors of others. Others reap what those earlier one's sowed, spiritually and physically. Righteousness builds upon itself. It constructs the whole, undivided House.

"we are not perfect, so this obviously does not apply to reaping what others sow,"

Your conclusion is built upon falsehood. If you were right, Jesus and James would be wrong.

"Please explain how you can take from another that which you did not work for without Covet?"

I take from Jesus. How is that coveting? When someone gives to me what I need for the flesh, I receive it. I take it. How is that coveting? You are not a clear thinker. You need to ask Jesus to clear your thinking.

"You may want others to be giving, but you can't command it. Not even God commanded Giving,"

Don't you think Jesus is God? Do you think that anything Jesus asked anyone to do was not a commandment? His word is law, commanding, in my Book.

Jesus said, "If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me."

He commanded, but he didn't force. That one went away rather than do what he was told to do to become perfected. To become perfected, you must do what Jesus commanded must be done to be perfected. There is no escape. There is no capitalist word-gaming that will let you out of it.

"This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you." (John 15:12)

James and the others seemed to understand about that what you refuse to acknowledge and to live by. The Apostles lived from one purse and held in common and gave to each other according to need because it is real love. Less than that is less than that real love. You don't like that though because it implies that you aren't living up to the real Christian spirit but rather living by the capitalist spirit, which any non-Christian can do.

Much of your comment diverges greatly from the point of the article and my points in my comments and are not only irrelevant but decidedly misleading and misled. One hardly knows where to begin to untwist your distorted ideas about Jesus's teachings.

No where will you find me teaching anyone not to enter in and labor, quite the opposite. One day in Heaven and the New Earth, labor won't be necessary though.

"Second: the apostles only pooled their resources for a short time."

That is a statement that is not supported anywhere in scripture. The only one who did not start out sharing all things in common was Paul. He was not one of the original disciples who lived with Jesus from one purse the whole time. The Church at Jerusalem was severely persecuted by the Jews who hated Jesus's and the Apostle's teachings there. Wasn't James killed for among many reasons his beliefs and preaching and communist lifestyle that included owning all together as common property under God?

If you judge the rightness or wrongness by what happens to believers, which you advocate doing here, then you would hardly follow Christ, as he was nailed to the cross – a direct outcome of his belief and preaching and deeds. Your thinking is very clouded.

"So the apostles by a choice of free will came together and pooled their resources for a specific goal and for a short period of time, even then it failed for sin entered into the equation."

That is capitalist false-propaganda. They held all in common until they were martyred for it, among other reasons. No where do you find anything to substantiate that they did not intend that Christianity be built upon the spirit that moved them then to hold all things in common. To suggest that they did an unrighteous and inherently failing thing in holding all in common permanently – including now in Heaven, is about as foreign to Christianity and Jesus's teachings as anything else I can imagine. It is just pure hypocrisy coming from a supposed Christian.

"history bears this interpretation to be accurate, since 1900 the attempts at communism/socialism have butchered 200 million people trying to make it work."

You falsely conflate Marxism with the Christianity of the Apostles at Jerusalem. Shame on you for doing that. You also ignore the many capitalists' violent attacks from the beginning on Christians and then on Marxists. Plus, you do not know how many people died on account of all the certain Marxists who "butchered." It's wild speculation that requires a great deal of qualifying as such.

You further ignore the millions of examples of socialism that have worked, are working, and will work while capitalism dies, as it should and must. That statement in no way condones coercion. I am solely for voluntarily entering Heaven. I do not believe in dragging in those, who by reason of their refusal to join in the Heavenly spirit, don't belong there.

"Genesis says man is born of sin, thus its not possible to take sin out of the equation. Acts 5 says the door is shut for man."

If you were correct, then Jesus came in vain to save the world and to take away the sins of the world. If you were correct, then no one may enter here on Earth right now. Jesus says otherwise. I believe him, not you.

Now, I have shown you how you are wrong in every case, but you have yet to admit that your reading of Jesus has been in error.

"The verse you are perverting is stating Gods position, for he created the Universe, we did not work for it yet we will reap of it. That verse applies to God. To try and put yourself or other men in place of God, is wrong. You are attempting take Gods position and apply it to mans position, which is why you are wrong. Sorry they are not interchangable."

Ah, yes, spoken like a true Muslim.
Joh_17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
Joh_17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Joh_17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
Joh_17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Be sure not to join in with that "one" that Jesus kept mentioning there to drill it into your hard heart, Daniel Hoppe. You stay behind with the capitalists and other non-believers.
Reply · Like · 2 seconds ago

Tom Usher · Works at Christian Commons Project
Daniel Anderson

They were given the right to be Christian. They didn't take it.

Regardless, you just shot down Benjamin Powell's article. You've just said that the Pilgrims were not in need of capitalist incentivizing but that they were having too much of their crops confiscated. Am I misreading your comment?

You really should join the Christian Commons Project. You don't have to quit your job. Actually, the idea is to translate mammon into land where Christians can live with other Christians to grow surplus food for the poor. Of course, you don't have to move there if you'd rather keep gaining mammon to translate into what will one day not need it, what will be finally self-sufficient without any capital/mammon.

Break the chains of mammon. Feed the poor. Further Christianity. What's not to like?
Reply · Like · 2 seconds ago

Daniel Hoppe · Aubrey, Texas
Tom Usher, I pray for you, you have twisted much, but say it with such heart that no reason or logic will come to your ears. Jesus did die for our sins, but Jesus did not remove sin from the earth and you will not walk a perfect path on this earth. Socialism does not work, it requires not trust, the more common people have the weaker it becomes, because people start to question why they give so much to the government. I they produce enough to take care of themselves, then they no longer need Government to take care of them. Capitalism gets stronger when there is trust, free trade works that way. The more people have the stronger it gets. The danger is that we must not lose site of God
Reply · Like · 18 minutes ago

Tom Usher · Works at Christian Commons Project
Daniel Hoppe

"Socialism does not work, it requires not trust, the more common people have the weaker it becomes, because people start to question why they give so much to the government."

That is completely changing the subject from the Christian Commons, which has nothing to do with what you are talking about.

You say no one can be perfect on the Earth. Jesus said be perfect. You are an anti-Christ talker and writer. You make yourself an enemy of Jesus Christ with your weak talk.

I have not written one thing here even remotely saying that I am for coercive socialism over Christianity. I am here for Christ and God, not Marx.

I always tell people that capitalists change the subject and ignore points. You are proof of what I say.

Speak only to Christianity (communism as Jesus lived it with his disciples and as his Apostles lived it until their murders by the mammon worshipers), not secular socialism (which is still better than coercive capitalism.)

Tom Usher · Works at Christian Commons Project
"Bad weather or lack of farming knowledge did not cause the pilgrims' shortages. Bad economic incentives did."

Total capitalist hogwash that is. An inability to be true Christians caused the Pilgrims' shortages. The Hutterites would have suffered no such scarcity the Pilgrims brought upon themselves due to their selfishness and laziness and unwillingness to be Christian concerning each other. The real economic incentive for real Christians is per Acts 4:32, which is completely in line with the teachings of Jesus.

Get your facts right, and tell the whole truth. Stop spreading false-propaganda for selfishness. Capitalism is a failure of the spirit. It is fatally flawed.

"And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common." (Acts 4:32) Debunk that!
Reply · Like · Unfollow Post · Wednesday at 5:02pm

Tim Reeves · Evergreen, Colorado
There's no facts in your response, only assertions. I would ask that you don't make assertions while telling others to get their facts straight.
Reply · 2 · Like · Wednesday at 6:43pm

Dave Skofstad · Works at Skofstad Electrical Contractor
Please note that the believers in Acts were volunteers. It was a spontaneous event and not repeated in Scripture. And not everyone in your example were participants, nor were they expected to be. Ananias and Sapphira were not condemned for holding back a portion of what was theirs, but for lying about it. Jesus illustrated that private property rights are not contrary to godliness in Matthew 20.

It seems to me you are building an entire theology on one passing incident. This is not sound Biblical scholarship.

Capitalism is not a failure of the spirit. In order to succeed in a capitalist system, one must serve his fellow man in a way that pleases the other, not oneself. And each party comes away better off in his own estimation. What could be more fair?
Reply · 12 · Like · Wednesday at 6:44pm

Shane Cline · University of Victoria
If you look around the world, it's pretty easy to see that capitalism is the system in which people are most charitable. You just have to accept that people work for their families primarily, and chip in to help others secondarily. If you expect it to be the other way around, you will be disappointed by any system, and even by good Christians.
Reply · 1 · Like · Wednesday at 8:04pm

Robert Einhorn · Works at Yodelling Institute of Memphis
Tom Usher..yes the scripture you cited..."And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common." (Acts 4:32). Please note the Scriptures' explicit wording! The Scripture clearly states "(they) were of ONE heart and ONE soul". I don't see present day American's as being of one ANYTHING! Too many are willing to take the easy road and not put forth an honest effort to improve themselves or better their community. Taking from those that produce and forcing them to give to those that are able, but choose not to produce, will only cause the producers to cease producing...just as the history of Plymouth demonstrates. Also, (John 4:38) is referring ONLY to winning souls and has nothing to do with economics. Both sowing and reaping are necessary to win souls. The Scripture reveals that the two are not always done by the same person(s). BTW...just because others do not agree with you on how to rectify unfairness (or even the very definition of unfairness), does not necessarily make them wrong. Sorry, I, and Scripture, just disagree with you.
Reply · 3 · Like · Wednesday at 8:05pm

Keith Jones · Stanwood High School
You forget that the early church had all things common because they were the church. This system, as you said earlier does not work when greed is in play. However neither does it work in the secular setting for the people at the top may or may not be of a Godly character. In the church we can agree to live a certain way because Jesus is at the head. But in the world you have man without chests, that is, with out hearts for God. You may have noticed that Annanias and Saphira owned what they sold and the money they got from it was theirs to keep if they so desired. Nothing was forced. The problem was that they lied about the amount they gave. Capitalism works best because it gives you a choice as to what to do with your wealth, it enables you do be greedy or benevolent. Is not that what God desires? Benevolent giving not coerced?
Reply · 2 · Like · Wednesday at 8:35pm

Tom Usher · Works at Christian Commons Project
Tim Reeves Acts 4:32 is a fact, Tim.
Reply · Like · Wednesday at 8:35pm

Tom Usher · Works at Christian Commons Project
Dave Skofstad

All Christians are volunteers. Your point is pointless.

There was nothing spontaneous about the decision of the Apostles in Acts. The disciples had live from one purse with Jesus. They were also aware of his sayings and doings and the full implications thereof.

Ananias and Sapphira are not relevant to the point of the article that claims that only incentivizing to selfishness is the right economic model. There are thousands of examples in history that disprove the supposed point of the pro-capitalist article.

Jesus said many things that allowed for lesser faith and lesser action. However, he preached to be perfect and to be of one soul. Who could be near the Apostles and be perfect and be of one soul with them while not giving all? It's divine logic. You can't defeat it. You preach inconsistency.

The more anyone inquired of Jesus, the greater that one's responsibility became as Jesus imparted more and more. If you are unaware of that, I suggest you re-read the Gospels with an eye to seeing whether or not what I've just said is true or not. I am correct about it whether you like it or not.

As for building theology on one so-called passing incident, you are making lame excuses for yourself. Would you like me to supply several dozen verses in support of anti-mammon and any selfish obtaining? You know it would be easy.

Your "private property rights" is a concept for the hard-hearted, much as was the writ of divorcement Moses gave to the hard-hearted. You should really try to stop making excuses and rather try to live up to Jesus's highest calling for you.

"In order to succeed in a capitalist system, one must serve his fellow man in a way that pleases the other, not oneself." Hogwash. The pusher is a great capitalist.

"What could be more fair?" You becoming an anti-capitalist and for the full, voluntary, giving-and-sharing economy that exists in Heaven and that once existed on Earth before the selfish spirit that is the evil father of the spirit of capitalism showed up, that's what.

Do you really believe you can get away in Heaven with claiming that capitalism is better than the economy I just described? If you are right, the Apostle should have set up businesses instead. There was no secular or Jewish law against it. Why didn't they do it if it was the right thing? Were they stupid? Were they really the sons of Satan?

You're dreaming. It's past time you wake up. Capitalism stinks to high Heaven! It always has. You've been on the wrong side.
Reply · Like · Wednesday at 9:04pm

Tom Usher · Works at Christian Commons Project
Shane Cline

My being disappointed is not the issue. I won't be disappointed. Your "good Christians" are not good. Only one is good. If they want to be good, let them bring forth a good system. Otherwise, they are hardly even lukewarm.

I want the Christian Commons because it will do what Jesus said to do: Feed his lambs and sheep. Your system doesn't do that. Your call to others doesn't do that. Jesus did not preach to do what you've said here.
Reply · Like · Wednesday at 9:11pm

Jessica Louise Fayville
Tom Usher try proper dispensation.
Reply · 1 · Like · Wednesday at 9:14pm

Shane Cline · University of Victoria
Tom Usher : Dude you're sounding a bit like them m*sl*m radicals. By the way, I'm not calling anyone to do anything, and I (like many others) am not particularly religious. So before you start getting everybody to do what Jesus and Karl Marx say, you'll first have to debate that with people like me.
Reply · Like · Yesterday at 6:21am

Daniel Anderson · Plainfield, Connecticut
Tom Usher appears to be a secular humanist masquerading as a Christian, picking and choosing passages of Scripture to support his Marxism. Rather than speaking the truth in love to correct his brothers, he is attacking them for their views. Satan is about attack and force. God is about free will.
Reply · 1 · Like · Yesterday at 7:23am

Daniel Hoppe · Aubrey, Texas
Tom, Acts 5 debuks Acts 4.. death was the result Acts 5 : 13 and of the rest no one was daring to join himself to them, but the people were magnifying them,

You are simply wrong about Capitalism being flawed. MAN is flawed, Capitalism is the only system that naturally deals with mans flaws without mass death. Socialism requires man to perfect, to be without sin. Genises says we are born of Sin.
Reply · Like · 18 hours ago

Tom Usher · Works at Christian Commons Project
Shane Cline

The issue is with the article's false premises. They would not have "needed" capitalistic incentivizing (appealing to their selfishness) had they been real Christians.

I don't have to convince you. If you don't like the truth, you go your way and I'll go mine. As for who ends up all thinking the same way with Jesus, we shall see. I believe him. If you don't, you won't be with him. That's for sure.

Regardless, you aren't central to the prophecy unfolding. The other people here who profess Christ no at least that much. I suspect they know more than they're willing to admit, but that won't cover them.
Reply · Like · 13 hours ago

Tom Usher · Works at Christian Commons Project
Daniel Anderson

Some Christian you are. You can't bring yourself to do what Jesus asked so you're trying to get people thinking what you know is a lie: that I'm a secular humanist masquerading as a Christian, picking and choosing passages of Scripture to support Marxism.

You don't like it that Acts 4:32 says the Apostles held all things in common because you couldn't do it. You're too selfish.

Have you read Marx? I have. I studied his crap. I've ripped his ideology to shreds. I've gone after him about his pack of lies just as much as I've expose the lies here in the article above and in these anti-Christ comments by people who are too afraid to share everything with those they claim to love as fellow Christians.

I said I want the Christian Commons because it fits with Jesus's commandment to feed his lambs and sheep, but what do you do about that? You fight against me. You more than imply that I'm Satanic. Well, if advocating much more fully and closely what Jesus asked all of us to do is closer to Satan than you are, then you just called Jesus more Satanic than you are. Do you think that's going over well in Heaven? I don't. I know it's not.

As for your false allegation that I'm not speaking the truth in love to correct brothers but attacking them for their views, if I didn't have any love for the lost, I wouldn't be here commenting to break the spell of mammon that has you all dancing with the anti-Christs. Check out your good friends. How many of them are atheists and homosexuals? Who are the top laissez-faire capitalists, the top libertarians? They aren't Christians. If you can't figure it out at whose knees you've been "learning," you're pretty thickheaded.

If you think I'm too hard on you, you better rethink Jesus. He was one tough rebuker.
Reply · Like · 13 hours ago

Tom Usher · Works at Christian Commons Project
Daniel Hoppe

Daniel, you said, "Socialism requires man to perfect." Daniel, Jesus said, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." What did he say is perfect? "If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me."

In Acts, the Christian sold their goods and lands and shared the proceeds with the Apostles who had them distributed according to need. Marx stole it. Okay? He stole it and twisted it so you would be confused.

You are trying so hard to ignore Jesus. Why? You're killing yourself.

Look, I want people, Christians, to help bring forth to feed the lambs and sheep, the poor. Christians can live together as one, raise food, feed each other and the poor. You don't like that idea better than capitalism?

Which idea does Jesus like better?

The capitalists hate the idea of doing what the Christians did. They hate the idea of doing what Jesus said to do.

Who are the biggest capitalists? They aren't Christians! You know that.
Reply · Like · 12 hours ago

Daniel Anderson · Plainfield, Connecticut
Do you own any private property, Tom?? Have you sold everything you have ever owned and laid it at the apostles' feet?? If you do still own anything at all, then you have no right to call me or anyone else selfish! There is nothing in this article about withholding from people in need. It is about a civil economic system that works versus one that doesn't. The system that doesn't work TAKES everything an individual produces by force, leaving him no choice. This is called THEFT! The individual is not GIVING, he is being STOLEN FROM! Thou shalt not steal - does that ring a bell?? Ananias and Sapphira died not because they withheld some of the proceeds of the sale of their property - scripture clearly states that - but because they LIED ABOUT IT TO THE APOSTLES. BIG DIFFERENCE! They had every right to acquire and own property, and give as little or as much of it to the apostles as they chose. Now, as far as calling you a secular humanist, forcing the principles of Christian giving of all you have to a secular government over an unregenerate population is a secular humanist principle and is MARXISM! This failed system was forced upon the pilgrims by the British West India Company that financed their trip to the New World. It had to FAIL SEVERAL TIMES before the company relented and allowed the pilgrims to consume what they produced. The bottom line is that capitalism allows people to give of their own free will. Marxism and fascism steals from them. Don't mistake the current economic system in the United States for capitalism. It is fascism, thanks to our worthless paper currency issued by a cartel of private global banks. As far as Jesus being one tough rebuker, he was, and none of the apostles ever dared making most of the accusations he made! He is GOD. You aren't. Get off your high horse!
Reply · Like · 9 hours ago

Tom Usher · Works at Christian Commons Project
Shane Cline

"I'm not calling anyone to do anything...," you said.

You're calling people to believe in capitalism. To suggest otherwise is false on its face.
Reply · Like · 2 seconds ago

Tom Usher · Works at Christian Commons Project
Daniel Anderson

"Do you own any private property, Tom?? Have you sold everything you have ever owned and laid it at the apostles' feet?? If you do still own anything at all, then you have no right to call me or anyone else selfish!"

So, according to you, if I don't own any private property, if I have placed everything at the Apostles' feet, then I have the right to tell you that you are being a false-Christian by advocating and supporting the anti-Christ ideology known as Capitalism.

I am a full member of the Christian Commons. The Christian Commons is 100% Acts 4:32. Therefore, according to you, I have done right here. Of course, I knew that before you confirmed it.

"There is nothing in this article about withholding from people in need. It is about a civil economic system that works versus one that doesn't."

That's falsehood. If you were correct, then there would be no common property held by all the citizens of a state regardless of size that would ever have worked, still be working, and will continue to do so. That is a direct comparison against capitalism. My comparison though is capitalism versus the Christian Commons, which is not secular. We are comparing systems. The Christian Commons is superior to capitalism. Everyone should join it. You are advocating that everyone not join it. You are advocating that everyone be a capitalist, which is a much lower calling. That's obvious. Even a democratic socialist state is superior to justifying the spirit of capitalism – not perfect but better.

"The system that doesn't work TAKES everything an individual produces by force, leaving him no choice."

Who's advocating that? I'm not. My preference is for Heaven to come to Earth. My preference right now is for the Christian Commons. If people are going to be in the secular system and vote, which is coercive, then I'd rather they vote for sharing. You can come out of it though and join me if you're able to overcome your selfishness and fear.

"Ananias and Sapphira," "Ananias and Sapphira," "Ananias and Sapphira," "Ananias and Sapphira," it's a broken record around here. What do they have to do with the Christian Commons and Heaven? "Thy kingdom come...." It is not a call for capitalism but its opposite. It's not a call for it never to happen but wanting it now! The sooner, the better. Even Jesus wished the trouble were over already.

I have already made very clear that the more one asks and the more one is told, the more is expected of that one. You have been told. "Ananias and Sapphira" said they would do something as "Christians" but were deceptive. Let me tell you though that those who did not do as the Apostles toward each other were not in the Church. Only the diluters came to water down the spirit-of-one that prevailed. The consequence of allowing those at best half-hearted ones to winnow their way in to subvert is the falsehood known as "Christian capitalism."

"They had every right to acquire and own property, and give as little or as much of it to the apostles as they chose."

They had every right under Satan, but that doesn't make that choice the right one, the best one, the perfect one, your calling as Christians, quite the contrary. Nowhere do you find Jesus saying to go ahead and be lesser and expect to enter into the Highest Heaven. It just isn't there. Do you want to be with God, one with God, or do you want to be off somewhere else with those who aimed low, weren't sufficiently moved or receptive to the Holy Spirit?

"Don't mistake the current economic system in the United States for capitalism. It is fascism, thanks to our worthless paper currency issued by a cartel of private global banks."

You aren't telling me anything I don't already know, not that your characterization is the proper full one. It isn't. It's only partially correct. It leaves out plenty that is the real light.

"As far as Jesus being one tough rebuker, he was, and none of the apostles ever dared making most of the accusations he made! He is GOD. You aren't. Get off your high horse!"

Oh, and who are you to tell me that I can't repeat Jesus's words here and to explain their meaning to those who read here?

"none of the apostles ever dared making most of the accusations he made"

Really, and just what were they beaten for and martyred? You don't know much.

You talk at me the way the Pharisees talked at Jesus, only you're worse. They didn't want to think Jesus had any right to speak to them as he did. You say that even though I'm a Christian and Jesus has called me to join with him as one, that I am not allowed to repeat his words or call anyone to join in doing what Jesus actually called upon people to do in the here and now and very physically as all being consistent with the spirit of God, which is what the Christian Commons (non-capitalist) is.

It is you who needs to get off your capitalistic ego trip. Satan loves capitalism. That's a fact. Don't tell me I can't say it. Don't tell me I have to show you where Jesus said it. The Holy Spirit isn't dead. The Holy Spirit still moves souls. It still tells people things. It elaborates on Jesus's words and deeds, just as Jesus said it would and whether you like it or not.

I noticed you avoided the issue of atheists and homosexuals who can be "fine" capitalists but not Christians in the slightest. Are you with them? Yes, you are. You are not spiritually separated out from them.
Reply · Like · 2 seconds ago

Shane Cline · University of Victoria
Tom Usher : Seeing as how we already have capitalism, in this discussion I was not calling for anyone to "do" anything, "do" meaning to exact some change. As for thinking or believing, yes, I am encouraging you to consider the positive qualities of the current system before you get so bent on reinventing it to conform to a religious interpretation that you and only a few others share. My idealization of the world is probably not very appealing to you, and yours is not appealing to me. The current system is a pretty good compromise of everybody's tastes. The current system probably knows you (and tallies your vote better) than you do. You may espouse compassion to strangers as a higher priority than familial responsibility, but do you really practice what you preach? China, the most culturally capitalist place on the Earth, once hypocritically led themselves into communism - and have since then partially rectified the mistake.

In case you might be interested in my call for action, which is by no means as all-encompassing as yours: I don't like OWS's desire to tax the richest 1% to assist the lower 99%. I believe that is middle class greed (and economically counterproductive). But I do think the upper 90% should lend a helping hand to the lower 10%. I consider it compassion to help your neighbors when they are in need. That's one reason that I support means-testing social security, voucherizing medicare, while maintaining welfare and unemployment programs with minor reforms. So now you understand my "call for action".
Reply · Like · about an hour ago

Tom Usher · Works at Christian Commons Project
Shane Cline

"You may espouse compassion to strangers as a higher priority than familial responsibility, but do you really practice what you preach?"

Where did you get the idea that I "espouse compassion to strangers as a higher priority than familial responsibility"? I don't see anything in what I've written or how I live where that's true. Furthermore, who is my neighbor and my family?

Jesus said that, that those who believe in him are his mother and brothers and sisters. I have a spiritual family and a flesh "immediate" family, and I want those to be one and the same. What's your problem?

China never practiced Christianity that is communism as I've described it. Even now, contrary to your claim, they are not the most capitalistic place.

Anyway, you and I are much farther apart than I am with most of the others here who have commented. I don't sense that you are even struggling with the spirit. You sound like you didn't even rise to the level of the ground of the seed that fell by the wayside.

If anything I've said here ends up working on you for the good, fine. Regardless, I don't see much point in discussing anything further with you in particular.

Anyway, may God bless you,

Tom
Reply · Like · 2 seconds ago

Why don't you join. I'm the only anti-capitalist that I ever see commenting there on that bastion of rabid capitalism. We're talking anarcho-capitalists for the most part over there. They are dupes of all dupes.

Wanna help me wake some of them up?

They want to think I'm Satan, but they're losing. I keep coming back to Jesus. It's making a number of them mad at me, but stray sheep and lambs can be saved and many have undoubtedly strayed there to be indoctrinated by the anti-Christs who defend the most-selfish, huge system the world has ever known: Capitalism.

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  • Tom Usher

    About Tom Usher

    Employment: 2008 - present, website developer and writer. 2015 - present, insurance broker. Education: Arizona State University, Bachelor of Science in Political Science. City University of Seattle, graduate studies in Public Administration. Volunteerism: 2007 - present, president of the Real Liberal Christian Church and Christian Commons Project.
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