My response is primarily given in the order the topics came up in the video and may require listening to the video for full context.
"...paid to say they changed"?
Besen said that the reason NARTH didn't supply enough people quickly enough was because those people don't exist; however, people were supplied whom Besen does nothing but claim are mostly paid to say they've changed. There are many people who have come forward who are not now professionally counseling others.
Regardless though, what is inherently wrong with people who have had problems themselves and who have discovered the way to overcome to then make a living helping others to do the same thing? Are we to muzzle the oxen? A worker deserves his or her wage.
People don't rush forward because of people such as Wayne Besen who tell huge lies about them and treat them as if they can't possibly exist while telling the truth about their own experiences overcoming. His manner is bullying. It is intended to intimidate and to silence the opposition not because that opposition is wrong but rather because it is right. He is persecuting those who have changed. He's doing that because he is unstable in his homosexuality and fears that the truth will be known and accepted.
Besen mentions Rekers but didn't say that the homosexual who was with Rekers said that Rekers did not have sex with him and did not request sex with him. Regardless, the fact is that sexuality is fluid. The major associations that Besen touts say that. He touts them out of one side of his mouth and then denies them out of the other.
Besen says "real credentials," as if the people at NARTH haven't been "credentialed." Besen is selective in the people he consults. He has not talked with geneticists who know that the definitive science is still out on homosex and genetics and very much so.
David Pickup very correctly stated that Wayne Besen was "cherry picking" the research. When David correctly stated that the APA (American Psychological Association) admits that it has no proof of any harm done by authentic Reparative Therapy, Besen ignores that Besen had said that there is causality and that the APA says there is harm.
The truth is that some SOCE (Sexual Orientation Change Efforts) include working on the de-feminization of some males via sports. In addition though, they use sports on the lesser- and non-effeminate as a means to promote a particular type of male bonding (non-sexual) that has been absent in so many lives. Besen is suggesting that such efforts are intended only to toughen-up. They clearly are not.
Also, when a researcher gathers data and then interprets that data, it doesn't make the data out of bounds for others to interpret differently. Besen is more than suggesting that NARTH has no right to have a different interpretation from some researcher's report on that researcher's data. Besen's view flies in the face of the whole point of peer-review.
Wayne Besen would have you falsely believe that there are no people who have changed and stayed that way, but David Pickup supplied the URL: http://www.voices-of-change.org/.
Besen says that "basically, anyone with a degree says that what you [David] do is harmful...." Besen said that even after David Pickup corrected him earlier about that. The APA doesn't say that. They merely speculate and some within their membership say it's risky in their opinion -- without any evidence whatsoever, only self-reporting by homosexuals who were not stable before the therapy. No cause and effect concerning harm has been established. Besen ignores that, avoids that, on purpose. They also have no proof that Reparative Therapy is ineffective. They couldn't because it is effective, per the people who have undergone it and are glad they did, as David Pickup so correctly stated. David Pickup knows them personally from his own practice. Those people are not being paid to say they've changed. Everyone of them should be offended by Wayne Besen and should stand right up publicly and denounce Wayne Besen for the false-propagandist that he so clearly is.
Besen says that "most" of the members of NARTH have "strip mall" degrees. Has he looked at NARTH's board and where they went to school? Anyway, I don't put much stock in all of that. I'm interested in the facts, and the fact is that people can and do change. There's nothing Besen can do about it, and he's losing the debate. The more people get to hear David Pickup and others like him, the better.
When David again pointed out the incorrect statement about the APA's official position, Alan then asked David what Wayne said that was incorrect. That appeared to be Alan not hearing David.
When David asked, "Are you going to let me talk," Alan didn't hear Wayne interrupting? Well, he finally couldn't help hearing it.
It is frustrating to deal with someone like Besen. Wayne Besen is intellectually dishonest. It's blatant.
David very passionately expressed the truth about homosexuals abusing boys and creating confusing unwanted same-sex attraction (SSA), which boys will be outlawed by SB 1172 from obtaining professional help in California for that unwanted SSA if that law is allowed to take effect at the end of 2012.
A confused, homosexually raped boy with resultant SSA is more than fine with Wayne Besen.
Besen is claiming David Pickup is being dishonest about David's firsthand knowledge that the abuse that David suffered caused David's own orientation confusion. How does one deal with a guy like that? Besen is lucky that David isn't litigious about it.
David is more interested in focusing upon getting the law straightened out so that wounded boys and girls who've been abused or neglected or smothered, or whatever, and are suffering unwanted same-sex attraction as a direct result of it are not blocked from the help they want and will benefit them.
The following should appear at the end of every post:
According to the IRS, "Know the law: Avoid political campaign intervention":
Tax-exempt section 501(c)(3) organizations like churches, universities, and hospitals must follow the law regarding political campaigns. Unfortunately, some don't know the law.
Under the Internal Revenue Code, all section 501(c)(3) organizations are prohibited from participating in any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for elective public office. The prohibition applies to campaigns at the federal, state and local level.
Violation of this prohibition may result in denial or revocation of tax-exempt status and the imposition of certain excise taxes. Section 501(c)(3) private foundations are subject to additional restrictions.
Political Campaign Intervention
Political campaign intervention includes any activities that favor or oppose one or more candidates for public office. The prohibition extends beyond candidate endorsements.
Contributions to political campaign funds, public statements of support or opposition (verbal or written) made by or on behalf of an organization, and the distribution of materials prepared by others that support or oppose any candidate for public office all violate the prohibition on political campaign intervention.
Factors in determining whether a communication results in political campaign intervention include the following:
- Whether the statement identifies one or more candidates for a given public office
- Whether the statement expresses approval or disapproval of one or more candidates' positions and/or actions
- Whether the statement is delivered close in time to the election
- Whether the statement makes reference to voting or an election
- Whether the issue addressed distinguishes candidates for a given office
Many religious organizations believe, as we do, that the above constitutes a violation of the First Amendment of the US Constitution.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
That said, we make the following absolutely clear here:
- The Real Liberal Christian Church and Christian Commons Project not only do not endorse any candidate for any secular office, we say that Christianity forbids voting in such elections.
- Furthermore, when we discuss any public-office holder's position, policy, action or inaction, we definitely are not encouraging anyone to vote for that office holder's position.
- We are not trying to influence secular elections but rather want people to come out from that entire fallen system.
- When we analyze or discuss what is termed "public policy," we do it entirely from a theological standpoint with an eye to educating professing Christians and those to whom we are openly always proselytizing to convert to authentic Christianity.
- It is impossible for us to fully evangelize and proselytize without directly discussing the pros and cons of public policy and the positions of secular-office holders, hence the unconstitutionality of the IRS code on the matter.
- We are not rich and wouldn't be looking for a fight regardless. What we cannot do is compromise our faith (which seeks to harm nobody, quite the contrary).
- We render unto Caesar what is Caesar's. We render unto God what is God's.
- When Caesar says to us that unless we shut up about the unrighteousness of Caesar's policies and practices, we will lose the ability of people who donate to us to declare their donations as deductions on their federal and state income-tax returns, we say to Caesar that we cannot shut up while exercising our religion in a very reasonable way.
- We consider the IRS code on this matter as deliberate economic duress (a form of coercion) and a direct attempt by the federal government to censor dissenting, free political and religious speech.
- It's not freedom of religion if they tax it.
And when they were come to Capernaum, they that received tribute money came to Peter, and said, Doth not your master pay tribute? He saith, Yes. And when he was come into the house, Jesus prevented him, saying, What thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers? Peter saith unto him, Of strangers. Jesus saith unto him, Then are the children free. (Matthew 17:24-26)