PUTIN, MOSCOW BAN HOMOSEXUAL PARADES: PETITION, NO
I posted, "YOU CAN CHANGE, AND THERE IS PLENTY WRONG WITH HOMOSEXUALITY: LIES FROM THE DARK SIDE EXPOSED," Monday, May 18, 2009. Matthew Wettlaufer on Facebook, left the following comment on Facebook stating, "Shame some people have a problem dealing with their prejudices towards gays." I asked him to explain. He hasn't.
Now there's this:
Concerning http://www.facebook.com/inbox/readmessag e.php?t=1028197360403 and
"End Russia's Ban on the Moscow Gay Pride Parade Petition":
I've been getting notifications from Matthew Wettlaufer on Facebook to sign the petition. I "friended" him some time ago as a "Christian communist."
Here's my reply:
I approach this as a disciple of Jesus. "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts ... fornications ...." (Mark 7:21 KJV) Homosexuality wasn't right then in Jesus's eyes. It was fornication when he said it. Truth. Nothing has changed. He also though holds against coercion. Neither the state nor the people should force. Let the truth convict consciences. Also, he said, "Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves." (Matthew 10:16) Homosexuality is not as harmless as a dove, contrary to certain false assertions of many homosexuals and others. Therefore, I won't sign your petition because I hold it as wrong. I rather ask you to repent for your good and the good of all. Peace, Tom Usher
Now, is he flaming or trolling or am I or are we both or is neither of us? To me, it's irrelevant.
Matthew claims to be a Christian. In my Book, he is not. He wants what he wants. I want what I want.
Truth,
Tom Usher
UPDATE: The following is the whole thread as of May 20, 2009 @ 2.43PM Pacific Standard Time:
Petition to end the ban against the gay rights march in Moscow
Between Steve Cooke, Steve Lowery, Stu Smith, Stuart Dummit, Terence Bowles, Thierry Mazzella, Thomas Gibson, Thomas Oswald French, Tim Archer, Tim Stephenson, Todd Ted Blythe, Tom Connolly, You, Tomás Ó Cárthaigh, Tone Grey, Toni Smith, Tony Martin and Matthew WettlauferMatthew Wettlaufer
May 19 at 1:18am
Reply
Please sign the petition to end the yearly ban against the gay rights march in Moscow. Please pass on the petition to your friends, thanks!
Matthttp://www.petitiononline.com/adorno66/p etition.html
End Russia's Ban on the Moscow Gay Pride Parade Petition
Source: www.petitiononline.com
End Russia's Ban on the Moscow Gay Pride Parade Petition, hosted at PetitionOnline.com
ShareTony Martin
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May 19 at 1:59am
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Signed Matthew. Good luck with it.Matthew Wettlaufer
May 19 at 3:16am
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Thanks Tony!Tom Usher
May 19 at 6:36pm
I approach this as a disciple of Jesus. "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts ... fornications ...." (Mark 7:21 KJV) Homosexuality wasn't right then in Jesus's eyes. It was fornication when he said it. Truth. Nothing has changed. He also though holds against coercion. Neither the state nor the people should force. Let the truth convict consciences. Also, he said, "Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves." (Matthew 10:16) Homosexuality is not as harmless as a dove, contrary to certain false assertions of many homosexuals and others. Therefore, I won't sign your petition because I hold it as wrong. I rather ask you to repent for your good and the good of all. Peace, Tom UsherMatthew Wettlaufer
May 19 at 9:56pm
Reply
It's a shame you feel that way. Jesus did not say anything about homosexuality. But you have a right to your views.
Best wishes
MattTomás Ó Cárthaigh
May 19 at 10:10pm
Reply
Its in the bible, in the old testament. in the Noahide laws (from the times of Noah)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noahide_Law s
The seven laws listed by the Tosefta and the Talmud are[3]
Prohibition of Idolatry: You shall not have any idols before God.
Prohibition of Murder: You shall not murder. (Genesis 9:6)
Prohibition of Theft: You shall not steal.******************************
Prohibition of Sexual Promiscuity: You shall not commit any of a series of sexual prohibitions, which include adultery, incest, bestiality and male homosexual intercourse.
******************************Prohibition of Blasphemy: You shall not blaspheme God's name.
Dietary Law: Do not eat flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive. (Genesis 9:4)
Requirement to have just Laws: You shall set up an effective judiciary to enforce the preceding six laws fairly.NOTE: Lesbianism is not banned!!!! :-)
Seven Laws of Noah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Source: en.wikipedia.org
The Seven Laws of Noah (Hebrew: ??? ????? ??? ?? Sheva mitzvot B'nei Noach), often referred to as the Noahide Laws, are a set of seven moral imperatives that, according to the Talmud, were given by God ...
ShareMatthew Wettlaufer
May 19 at 11:15pm
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Tomas, it sounds like the texts you cite have a lot in common with the views of the Mullahs of Iran and the Taleban, the problem with religious fundamentalism, of whatever kind, is that it leaves out the right to question and the right to reason. Societies that lack reason succumb to barbarity.The other problem is the dogmatic practice of basing secular moral codes upon ancient texts--the problem of interpretation and translation, the question of meaning. Much of what you cite had to do with temple prostitution practices in the Middle East by religious cults and the wish of the Hebrew law makers to avoid duplicating these institutions. There were also dietary restrictions and rather bizarre suggestions that would seem amusing today--for example in the Old Testament it also says no touching of pig skin--so that means no more Sunday afternoon football games! And it says that Lot slept with his own daughters, so is that an endorsement of incest?
But of course ambiguity is brushed aside by religious fundamentalists who use these texts to justify their prejudices against minority groups. We still live in a democracy, not a theocracy, so our laws are based upon reason, not religious dogma. I uphold your right to believe as you wish, but I deny the right of anyone to impose discrimination upon me or those who are like me in the name of their religious views.
Tone Grey
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May 19 at 11:19pm
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"...so that means no more Sunday afternoon football games!"See, it's good to be a fundamentalist ! I'm all for this law to live by !!!
Matthew Wettlaufer
May 19 at 11:29pm
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Actually you have a point there :)Tom Usher
Today at 1:13am
@ Matthew Wettlaufer May 19 at 9:56pmMatthew,
You're claiming Mark 7:21 doesn't apply to homosexuality. However, that's illogical. It's not well reasoned. All homosexual acts were acts of fornication. That's inescapable. You ought not to deny it. To deny it is to hold with falsehood. To claim Jesus said nothing about homosexuality is to mislead. Either you believe in Jesus or you don't. If you believe in him, you agree with him. Apparently, you don't agree with him. You think he's wrong. You think you know better. You should rethink your position.
Peace,
Tom Usher
Tom Usher
Today at 1:37am
@ Matthew Wettlaufer May 19 at 11:15pmMatthew,
I don't come at this from an Old Testament approach. I never have. I will say though that the Bible says of Lot's issue that no good came from it. If you know how to read that, it means that incest is bad. I suggest you not cite that again in support of homosexuality.
As for ambiguity, how do you justify banning pedophilia? Why is homosexuality all right but pedophilia is not or incest or bestiality or any other sexual behavior for that matter? Where's the reasoning? I don't see it.
Jesus draws the line at being harmless as doves. That works for me. I see no ambiguity in it at all. If you see it, where do you see it?
I thought you claimed "Christianity." Am I mistaken in that?
Do you "deny the right of anyone to impose discrimination upon" those who practice bestiality? As you know from having read my post http://www.realliberalchristianchurch.or g/?p=3117 upon which you commented on Facebook (you did read it didn't you?), I don't hold with coercion. Therefore, I'm not imposing upon you in the sense you mean the term. I'm not imposing upon anyone concerning anything. Are you able to say the same, or are you actually caught in hypocrisy even though you appeal with the term "ambiguity" against Biblical Fundamentalists (of which I am not one, again, in the sense you mean)?
Peace to All,
Tom Usher
Matthew Wettlaufer
Today at 1:41am
Reply
No, not all homosexual relationships were simply acts of fornication in the early Christian Church--there were many early examples of erastai, men who married men, who were also Christian, some of whom were martyred (like Saints Bacchus and Sergius of Syria).In the passage you cited I have a translation:
Mark 7:21-23 (New International Version)
21For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean.' "The noun you are using is from the Greek--por-ni-ah, it literally means sexual idolatry. This again goes back to what I said about the Hebraic censure against temple prostitution. But you are reading it from a 21st century perspective, inserting your worldview and experience on a term that was written thousands of years ago. The arrogance is in assuming that the two worldviews are an absolute match, and in not acknowledging the role your subjective experience has in interpreting this text. We all come to a text with our value systems, expectations and pre-judgments. We can't help not doing that. As long as we acknowledge that we are encountering something from a necessarily flawed angle, we salvage our humble humanness and acknowledge our fallibility in terms of what we think is true.
But to insist on a dogmatic, black and white approach to anything is impossible--it ignores the distance you and I have from these texts, and it ignores our how conditional our understanding of the truth is (determined by our culture, our upbringing, history). That is the kind of mistake which leads people to harm one another because they have insisted that their view and only their view is right.
MattTony Martin
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Today at 2:06am
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God is love. End of story.Matthew Wettlaufer
Today at 2:07am
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Well put :)Tom Usher
Today at 2:15am
Matthew,What men did in the early church has nothing to do with what Jesus said when he said it.
The New International Version is politically slanted in the "modern" sense. It was deliberately written with a view to "authorize" that which was not authorized by Jesus.
Do you really believe that Jesus spoke against all those acts you've listed but held that the act of homosexuality was not sin?
Strong's says:
G4202
πορνεία
porneia
por-ni'-ah
From G4203; harlotry (including adultery and incest); figuratively idolatry: - fornication.There is no doubt that "fornications" meant sex out of wedlock, for harlotry, adultery, and incest were (and remain) such. Surely you don't deny it. Porneia had more than one connotation at the time. It is contextual. You are very selectively using one connotation to obfuscate and self-authorize.
You have also evaded the issue of homosexuality being harmful and Jesus's prohibition concerning harm. http://www.realliberalchristianchurch.or g/?p=121 That's a central tenet to real Christianity.
To read you is to read that there is no right versus wrong. You are mistaken. Jesus did not go to the cross for some vague indeterminable cause. He went for the sake of righteousness, and homosexuality is not righteous, by his definition (his life example and the full context of his words).
You're skirting the issues.
Peace,
For: The REAL LIBERAL CHRISTIAN CHURCH and Christian Commons Project
Tom UsherP.S. God is love, and God is truth.
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Tom Usher
Standing Comment, all posts and pages:
To all homosexuals and their supporters, condoners, promoters, accepters, confirmers, and the like:
Unless you have something completely new that hasn't already been refuted, don't bother. It won't show up.
Rehashing what has already been refuted is a waste of everyone's time.
I'm not interested in casting pearls before swine, giving the children's bread to the dogs, or rebuking a forever scorner.
Learn or go away: There is zero wisdom in homosexuality. Homosexuality is wrong. Nothing any homosexual or anyone else can say or do will alter it. No one needs the Bible to know it either. It's prima facie. There's no such thing as an unrepentant-homosexual Christian. There never has been and never will be. That's the way of it. If you don't like it, change.
Do site searches on the various topics concerning homosexuality to determine if your "point" has already been handled. Currently, I provide three different search methods. The "WordPress" search is still the most thorough.
The same can be done regarding militarism, capitalism, coercion, and many other main issues and themes.
TREATMENT, RUDENESS, POLITENESS, OFFENSE, TRUTH
Many times over the course of this website's existence, I've had commentators complain about how I've treated them and/or others. Much less frequently has anyone taken exception to those commentator's comments. I assume that's because for one, I appear to be holding my own.
Often, I have raised the fact that Jesus called certain people "serpents." I've often also mentioned how he cleaned the temple with whip in hand, not that he used it on anyone. It certainly doesn't say that he did, and neither was he charged with it in the kangaroo court of the serpents who ended up murdering him by proxy just for, among other wonderful things, speaking out and speaking truth.
If I say that those who are engaged in serpentine behavior are the New Testament "serpents," then why take offense at my saying it rather than standing with Jesus and me about it?
If others don't like it that I treat others or them the way I have in this regard, why don't they take it up with the serpents and/or their own consciences and God?
If I wanted to catch flies, I'd use honey. I don't want flies on this level. Human beings aren't to be on the level of flies. If the truth is bitter as vinegar, then ask yourself why and learn to taste it as sweet but not sickeningly so. Why attack the message and messenger, as the serpents did, and become a serpent by so doing?
The issue is not "name calling" on some bratty, childish level. When Jesus said "serpents," he was not being as a brat. His level was completely adult to adults and children. He dared say that the children understood the clear and plain truth before the adults who, afterall, had been abused and socialized by the serpents. He still calls adults back. Those who hear him and know his voice (truth) turn around and do the other required things together as well.
What is it for a human being to be more serpentine or reptilian than what God initially gave? What was and remains Jesus's point? What is the reptilian brain versus the vastly higher human brain with its cerebral cortex and frontal and temporal lobes and specific areas of altruistic sentiments and abilities? What are those higher areas before they are damaged, before the communication pathways to them and between them are diminished by evil that is always some form of abuse? How are those pathways reestablished or created where they never were in this fleshly life?
The snake lays its eggs. The eggs hatch. The snake parent doesn't nurture or raise the offspring. It's every snake for itself. Human parents and family are not designed to be that way. Humans hand down the learning of nurturing. Many people get better training than do others, and many people have a greater aptitude for learning and predisposition for the higher and highest virtues. Many are less abused. People can change for the better and best though, no matter where the starting point. They only can't if they don't — if they reject it.
Snakes, of course, also come in venomous varieties and in strangling varieties, etc., such that they have been attackers and even devourers of humans for eons, guilty and innocent alike.
Now, Jesus knew that most people could relate to what were, and still are, largely considered "good" parenting skills and "good" "family" relations. He regularly used those concepts to get people to consider the wider implications for the whole of humanity. He did know that many would refuse. He let them go. He didn't demand secular or false-religion legislation to rein them in with threats of violence and imprisonment. He was not and is not coercive. Even his Church is a voluntary place to be.
What he still teaches (through the written words in the New Testament and as those connect with the Old and also teaches through the Holy Spirit he definitely sent as he said he would) is, among many other things, that "good" is vastly better than has been commonly accepted and that real "family" is everyone left after all the rest have rejected the higher and highest good. He raised the standards far above the Old Testament and far above the "modern" standard.
The American Empire and the American people in general aren't even touching the hem of his garment, let alone even attempting to stand upright and side-by-side with him.
I point out that Jesus was, and is, a Real Liberal Christian. He is the one who brought back this censored truth that is the light. After he had spoken it and lived it and was murdered for doing so, the censors set about to re-censor it and did. They couldn't put it out though — couldn't completely extinguish the truth. I wouldn't be saying it now again with all credit to God, just as Jesus, if they had been able to completely block it.
I point out that each of those terms ("real," "liberal," and "Christian," along with "Church") are actually redundant terms — synonyms that are so close that they become one. The term "liberal" here is not the common usage, which common usage is a deliberate corruption of the term. There is no harm in real liberalism. There is no vileness in it. There is only beneficence. "Real" may be understood as the opposite of false-hearted, dark side, and dead of the Holy Spirit. Christian is both real and liberal in those senses. To arrive at living, doing, being those full senses requires what Jesus lives, does, and is in the highest. Finally, the Church is the whole.
Who are they who want to drag it down, censor it, work against it, lessen it, ignore it, etc.? Well, who sides with Jesus and who sides against him? Did the serpents side with him then? Do they now?
We call war-mongers "hawks." We call "peacemakers" blessed and "doves." Why do the hawks not take offense at "hawks" but do take offense at "serpents"? "Hawks" is not yet as telling to the general public, but I must tell you that all hawks are serpents. Why do some say, "Greed is good" but take offense at "serpents"? I tell you there is no difference between the selfish and the serpents. Why do people take offense at serpents when they do not take offense at homosexuality? I tell you the homosexual spirit also comes out from the dark side. It is a choice. It is harmful. Many are abused with it. Many never overcome it. Their very brain matter is transformed by it. Then they claim it is good when it remains confusion and definitely wrong and harmful.
Many arguments were put forth in support of tolerance. I understood that Jesus "tolerated," as in he did not execute wrath but rather told the truth and let the blind follow the blind (blind to the truth) into the ditch of their own making. I have watched while the movement has been corrupted into condoning what was once only to be tolerated. I have watched further while it has moved from condoning to promoting even to the youngest children to get to them before the truth does. I have seen evil at work, and I sound the alarm. I face censorship and other negative reactions for it.
As the American Empire claims to be a light to the world, it murders innocent babies by Hellfire missiles fired from predator drones controlled by armchair, video-gaming serpents in uniform. It tortures those who are not even suspects. It spies on its own without even probable cause or reasonable suspicion. It lies its way into wars for spoils and control. It neglects its poor, whom it treads down for the sakes of the superrich — for the sake of the massive flow of mammon from the bottom up (no trickledown — trickledown is a farce and always has been). All is claimed to be okay in America though — that America is headed in the right direction — because soon, even "don't tell, don't ask" will be a thing of the quaint past and homosexuals may be able to sleep together and have sex in the barracks with the "blessing" of the Empire while they practice murdering the innocent for the sake of homosexual, greedy plutocrats who own them and who, in turn, are owned by the dark-side spirit named by God and Jesus as Satan.
Whose side are you on? I speak truth to warn. I don't tell the secular government what to do other than occasionally to say what at least would be less hypocritical within their fallen, unenlightened system. I do so for spiritual reasons. What I want is the Christian Commons.
Now, if you submit a comment:
What you write here against the Real Liberal Christian Church founded by Jesus Christ will mark you in the Biblical sense unless you show that you have turned and are repenting in time to escape the damnation of your own choosing. That's the way of it. Don't be tempted by the devil to stand opposed to the call of righteousness. Overcome such evil temptation. Help others to help yet others to come to righteous behavior through-and-through.
Check out how even after reading this, people will still take it out of context and twist it to an evil end.