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I see that the book is in the Charismatic tradition, meaning that the Holy Spirit has not ceased to work signs and wonders (they've just been subtler for a long while). I see also that the book comes out from the Fivefold Ministry concept of the Pauline letter Ephesians, chapter four, verse eleven.

I hold with the movement of the Holy Spirit for sure. What I am not, however, is Pauline. I don't say that all things Pauline are necessarily Paul's vision. Many interpretations have gone into constructing what today are the various Pauline churches.

I don't hold with any clear demarcation of the five offices of this Fivefold Ministry concept. In fact, Jesus himself said not to be called one of them: teacher (as in rabbi). Was he being contextual to the point of accepting Paul's "teaching" on the matter? He was saying that it is the Holy Spirit God who gives the real instruction. I do not wish to diminish that focus by subscribing to the teacher-notion of the Fivefold Ministry concept of Paul. I do though comprehend contexts where the connotation is designed to suggest that the teaching from the teacher is credited to God. That of course emphasizes my point that there is no demarcation in the end, so why fabricate a means that doesn't lead there.

As for the notion of "burnout" of a pastor or spouse, this is backsliding and, of course, indicative. I haven't read the book, so I won't assume or anticipate what it does or doesn't say in support of this.

I am not an American Dreamer. The furthest thing from my mind and heart is raising up more of the same "churches" where pastors are mere businessman and women. American-style commercial business is an unwanted forceful intrusion and offense. Rick Warren and all the other Peter Drucker users (I have read Drucker) are apostates, frankly.

I will use all the various organizational ideas but only as tools to wean us off capitalism and majority democracy, which are both unchristian. This is how I approach Paul and his means and ends. Where I say that Drucker and Warren were means to a wrong end, I say the same of Paul. The employment of the tools as in where, when, and why, etc., is something for the Holy Spirit to direct. Warren's clearly stated goals are American-Dream- and super-patriot-type ideas that do not jibe with the message of Jesus. He is not a powerful anti-war voice at all. His reverse tithing is easy for him since one 10th of his mammon income still leaves him privately wealthy in the unrighteous mammon.

People worship their understanding of the nature of God. The New and Old Testaments are in continuity, but the New reveals what was hidden to the masses in the Old and even to the Old Testament prophets. The difference lies in the fruits.

The fruits of the spirit are not always good or right. There is the evil spirit that masquerades as the good. When we say that there is none other but God, we are making a semantical statement concerning the real versus the false-hearted. The spirit of Satan is the false-hearted spirit that has masqueraded as God, who is the only real, purely goodhearted. The "wrath" of God is the Satanic — not God. When Jesus cleaned his temple, he did not unleash.

The God seen and heard by the Old was an angel. Satan is an angel — a demon angel. He is inferior and hence imperfect and not the author of existence. He, not God, moves souls to wrath. He is though under God's plan whether Satan likes it or not, which he doesn't. God's plan is that we reject Satan for God so that we are no longer Hell bound for wrath and torture.

The proverbial swine will seek to trample this and to rip me to pieces, but it won't fall because it is true. Ask the real God.

This post and the comments there shed light. If you are given by God, you will see there the false spirit contending in death throws and falling away.

Truth

Very fine

Thank you for being a Christian. I like to remember that God made people too.

God made you.

God Bless,

Tom Usher